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[talon]

Yes, the ZF14.4 most certainly has lower IR (internal resistance) throughout the SoC range. ZF13.0 will be affected by cold and hot temperatures more and cut off sooner at low SoC. For these reasons (and a likely lower-resolution current sensor), the older packs are even harder to determine SoC on so recalculations can be a bit more dramatic. I highly recommend just skimming the Unofficial Manual as it has never-ending information about these kinds of effects that can apply elsewhere in life.

Fun side note:  While I'm not 100% sure, I'm pretty sure the higher IR of older packs means their IR will also increase faster meaning older packs should age slightly faster for the same loads.

[MostlyBonkers]

It's been down for a while now, this alternative should work though:

https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/zero-log-parser.html

Thanks.  I've attached the logs for the fast runs.  Let me know if you want the logs from any of the other runs.

[MostlyBonkers]

By the way, I converted the logs into a WordPad document to make them easier to read.

I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?

Yesterday the weather was warmer (16-19C) and I managed a 31 mile run on 33% even with about 2 miles on a motorway!  A lot of of the miles were done at very low speeds on single track country road and about two miles on a green lane.

I think a repeat of the route to Winslow on a warm day is in order.  Would any of you be interested in the results of that, or would any of you like to see the logs from other runs?

[Crissa]

Of course I'd like to hear the results

[togo]

> I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?

Not sure. There's also a python log parser on GitHub.  Maybe it'll do better than the online one?  Certainly is an easier one to submit bugs and patches against.

[MostlyBonkers]

> I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?

Not sure. There's also a python log parser on GitHub.  Maybe it'll do better than the online one?  Certainly is an easier one to submit bugs and patches against.

Thanks Togo.  I have used the python version, but not for a couple of years or so. 

[MostlyBonkers]

Yesterday I managed to do a longer run again.  I drained the battery to 0% SoC, which I ran on for at least the last 2-3 miles.  The weather was much warmer than when I did my Winslow run; around 16-19C during the ride, versus about 7C the other day.

I started with this:




And ended with this:




The Odometer read 84.4 miles, which I'll treat as 80 real miles.  I forgot to take a photo but remembered a few hours later while it was charging:




Also, some of you might be interested in the estimated time to charge a ZF14.4 from empty:




I wasn't riding Miss Daisy on that run and I even managed to demonstrate a full throttle 0-60mph sprint to a fellow biker who took an interest.

So after all this testing, I feel comfortable claiming the following range figures for my bike with me on it:

Worst case (full throttle as much as possible): 40 miles either on the motorway or back roads.

Riding for pleasure on mixed roads with overtaking and having some fun: 75 miles.

Going steady: 80+ miles

Ambient temperature really does make a significant difference to range.

[MostlyBonkers]

I managed an 82 mile (Odometer reading) ride today with 11% SoC remaining when I got home.  I planned a 79 mile route on the Sat Nav, made a couple of small mistakes and I think the true mileage would be around 80 miles.  I'll attach some photos and the log for those that are interested.  The majority of the ride was on back roads and with a lot of single track roads which really keep your speed down.  I took it steady and backed off when I noticed my speed was over 70.  Most of the ride was well under 60.  The conditions were warm (17C roughly), dry and with very little wind.  The hills in Hertfordshire are what you might call rolling.  Certainly not mountainous.

[MostlyBonkers]

I managed an 82 mile (Odometer reading) ride today with 11% SoC remaining when I got home.  I planned a 79 mile route on the Sat Nav, made a couple of small mistakes and I think the true mileage would be around 80 miles.  I'll attach some photos and the log for those that are interested.  The majority of the ride was on back roads and with a lot of single track roads which really keep your speed down.  I took it steady and backed off when I noticed my speed was over 70.  Most of the ride was well under 60.  The conditions were warm (17C roughly), dry and with very little wind.  The hills in Hertfordshire are what you might call rolling.  Certainly not mountainous.

Some pics..

[togo]

When running for maximum range, it can be useful to use a custom mode with top speed limited to 60 MPH.  Those segments at high speed really cut efficiency.

[MVetter]

Some pics..

That's motor temp, right?

[TheRan]

It should be, I think that's the only temp you can get displayed on the dash.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P).  It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus.  I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac.  I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds.  So that's what I did.  I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power.  I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock.  I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount.  The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike.  I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat.  Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles. 

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario.  The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway.  I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied.  It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads.  My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range.  Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag.  After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range?  We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers.  Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking.  An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs.  I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those.  Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration.  If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management.  That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though.  Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads.  They are very well engineered to do that.  After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.

I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.

[MostlyBonkers]

Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P).  It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus.  I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac.  I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds.  So that's what I did.  I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power.  I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock.  I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount.  The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike.  I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat.  Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles. 

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario.  The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway.  I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied.  It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads.  My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range.  Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag.  After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range?  We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers.  Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking.  An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs.  I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those.  Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration.  If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management.  That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though.  Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads.  They are very well engineered to do that.  After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.

I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.

Perhaps knowing the range in the worst case scenario is just as pointless as knowing the best case scenario.  Both are unobtainable under everyday riding conditions.  Unfortunately manufacturers choose to quote the latter in all their marketing materials so it's nice to see the contrast.

Hopefully some of the other rides I've detailed in this thread are more useful to you and as such I don't think your comment was called for.

[Crissa]

Knowing how far you can got flat out on the freeway is helpful as a lower bound.

-Crissa