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Author Topic: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS  (Read 3735 times)

MostlyBonkers

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ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: March 24, 2020, 03:36:30 AM »

Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P).  It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus.  I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac.  I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds.  So that's what I did.  I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power.  I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock.  I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount.  The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike.  I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat.  Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles. 

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario.  The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway.  I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied.  It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads.  My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range.  Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag.  After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range?  We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers.  Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking.  An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs.  I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those.  Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration.  If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management.  That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though.  Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads.  They are very well engineered to do that.  After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.
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princec

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2020, 04:07:19 AM »

I'd be happy with just "ordinary razzing around" figures, nobody ever rides flat out everywhere normally. Fundamentally until they get super slippery fairing designs it'll all be much of a muchness anyway, they're all within a couple of % efficiency of each other so it'll just end up coming down to battery size = range and that seems to average out at being about 7 miles per nominal kWh.

Cas :)
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TheRan

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 04:27:11 AM »

I'm also from Hertfordshire, small world. I decided to give my 7.2 DS a bit of a hammering today to see how quickly I could get it to drain by hopping on the dual carriageway and pinning it at the 86mph limiter. I usually stick to 30-40mph roads with the odd short stint at 50-60mph and the range estimate on my dash is typically 65-70 miles depending on how enthusiastic I'm being. Today I managed to drop it from 100% to 65% and had an estimated range left of 29 miles so that comes out to a total range of about 44 miles, actually a little less as the first 6-7% wasn't as high speed. I was expecting it to be even less than that, the SoC certainly dropped much quicker than I was used to but then I was also covering distance much more quickly.

I should probably start keeping track of my odometer and how far I'm actually going to see if the range estimate is accurate.

How come your 2014 is a 14.4? Battery replacement or is that with a power tank?
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MVetter

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 04:45:07 AM »

Do you have any data for what speeds you achieved?

edit- also well fucking done. Really entertaining and you are dead-on correct on most of your assumptions.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 06:11:58 AM by MVetter »
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 06:13:52 AM »

Bravo, You did a great job writing this up, and I can confirm you are correct about most of your extrapolations.

There is one caveat, track days, provided you stop at 30% SOC remaining, you can do 4-5 in a day.

Crissa

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 06:41:03 AM »

At 30% remaining, mine starts capping freeway speed excessively.

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5

MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 09:18:49 AM »

I'd be happy with just "ordinary razzing around" figures, nobody ever rides flat out everywhere normally. Fundamentally until they get super slippery fairing designs it'll all be much of a muchness anyway, they're all within a couple of % efficiency of each other so it'll just end up coming down to battery size = range and that seems to average out at being about 7 miles per nominal kWh.

Cas :)
I can help there too. 

Ordinary razzing around, i.e. lots of fun without being a total hooligan and ignoring speed limits everywhere will allow about 60 miles of hooning.  That's maximum fun without unnecessary risks and being totally irresponsible.

Going for a reasonably relaxed pootle will see more like 80 miles of range or more, depending on conditions.

I haven't tried this yet, but I would guess that 100 miles is possible using Eco mode and keeping below 60 on the faster portions.  I ride in custom mode with max power and torque. No regen on closed throttle and max regen when I apply the brakes.  I believe it to be the most economical as conserving momentum is usually better than using regen.  I guess limiting torque and max speed would help here in custom mode, but I prefer to just be gentle with the throttle and still have the maximums available to me.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 09:26:16 AM »

I'm also from Hertfordshire, small world. I decided to give my 7.2 DS a bit of a hammering today to see how quickly I could get it to drain by hopping on the dual carriageway and pinning it at the 86mph limiter. I usually stick to 30-40mph roads with the odd short stint at 50-60mph and the range estimate on my dash is typically 65-70 miles depending on how enthusiastic I'm being. Today I managed to drop it from 100% to 65% and had an estimated range left of 29 miles so that comes out to a total range of about 44 miles, actually a little less as the first 6-7% wasn't as high speed. I was expecting it to be even less than that, the SoC certainly dropped much quicker than I was used to but then I was also covering distance much more quickly.

I should probably start keeping track of my odometer and how far I'm actually going to see if the range estimate is accurate.

How come your 2014 is a 14.4? Battery replacement or is that with a power tank?
Oh, wow! A local Zero rider? Or should I say unicorn? [emoji23]. Drop me a private message if you fancy a rideout sometime.  I'd be happy to take you on my Herts TT route.  [emoji4]

You seem to be getting good range out of your 7.2 DS.  I guess the reduced weight helps a lot.

The original 11.4 battery was replaced just over a year ago with the 14.4 unit.  It's a very welcome upgrade! 
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2020, 09:30:15 AM »

Do you have any data for what speeds you achieved?

edit- also well fucking done. Really entertaining and you are dead-on correct on most of your assumptions.
High 80's, low 90's on the straights.  It's a very mixed route with lots of twisties, hard breaking and full throttle.

Thanks for your comments Morgan, much appreciated and I'm glad you found it an enjoyable read. :-)
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2020, 09:34:36 AM »

Bravo, You did a great job writing this up, and I can confirm you are correct about most of your extrapolations.

There is one caveat, track days, provided you stop at 30% SOC remaining, you can do 4-5 in a day.
Thanks very much Brandon!

I was very much guessing about track days, so it's great to hear from someone with experience. [emoji106]
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2020, 09:43:07 AM »

At 30% remaining, mine starts capping freeway speed excessively.

-Crissa
Which battery pack have you got Crissa?  I've found that the ZF14.4 is much better at providing a decent amount of power right down to low SoC numbers.  Below 30% SoC my ZF11.4 pack was similar to your experience, especially when the temperature dropped to 5C or below.

I also find the new pack will let me ride down to 3% SoC and not start limiting me to 30mph or just die.  I haven't run it below that yet.  With the 11.4 it was a gamble when I reached 10% SoC or below.  Winter made it worse.
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talon

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 10:53:27 AM »

Wait, you have a DS (assumed: police edition, but not the larger "R" controller or motor) AND the ZF14.4 pack and only got 41 miles on a full charge?? How cold was it? Even after
"goosing it" all day on the highway on a cold day with no windscreen my minimum range on a 2016 SR was 70 miles. Now with the windscreen I can't seem to get less than 80 I think. I swear I thought these would overheat and slow down before they let you get less than 60 miles wide open throttle..
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2020, 01:21:06 PM »

Wait, you have a DS (assumed: police edition, but not the larger "R" controller or motor) AND the ZF14.4 pack and only got 41 miles on a full charge?? How cold was it? Even after
"goosing it" all day on the highway on a cold day with no windscreen my minimum range on a 2016 SR was 70 miles. Now with the windscreen I can't seem to get less than 80 I think. I swear I thought these would overheat and slow down before they let you get less than 60 miles wide open throttle..
You're correct talon, it's effectively a standard DS with crash bars.

Good question about the temperature. I've used the 'Time Machine' feature on my weather app which tells me it was 5C.  My bike was charged at the end of a ride two days before when the battery temperature was at 31C.  I think it’s safe to say that the battery temp was no more than 6C when I started my ride, although I didn’t check it.

Am I right in thinking that the 2016 SR has the new IPM motor?  That would help explain the motor not overheating.  If somebody could confirm that, I’d be grateful.

What kind of speed were you able to maintain on the highway with WOT?  Even with the IPM motor, I'd be very surprised if you could keep 95mph up for long.  I think the controller(inverter) would be the limiting component in your scenario, if the motor wasn't overheating.

Other factors that could explain the difference:

Your size, weight and the riding gear you wear.

The SR has a lower profile; I think it may be a little lower and it encourages the rider to lean forward, thus presenting less to the wind.

The SR has normal road tyres, so there's much less rolling resistance.

However, your bike has the ZF13 battery, so less juice onboard...

You've inspired me to do a motorway run. Let's see if I can escape the household!
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talon

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2020, 01:51:24 PM »

Ride safe! I was not WOT on the highway run but I could tell the bike did not want to give me much more even after the battery warmed up further. Heavy loads and high charging rates are bad for cold batteries so make sure yours is warm enough before WOT. I believe I was around the same temperature and did not tuck at all.

Unfortunately where I live anything over 80MPH is the highest level of misdemeanor and I can't risk that, especially at this time.

I don't know how bad the pre-IPM motors were, but I can still easily overheat the 2016 SR IPM motor in <0C ambient just from accelerations after a couple corners. I am aching to do another highway range test but the only charging stations I have are dealerships and I refuse to use them anymore. Long story short, if you call ahead to ask for permission on a public charger--get a name or a manager to double check.

If you have a spare android, you should get the Metrics for Zero app and record a log of the entire ride to watch voltage drop and temperatures. I'm curious what the limits are for your bike! I just wish that it showed battery temperature as well :( Record starting and ending battery temperatures as recorded by ZeroVoltage or the official Zero app (I am a huge data and physics nerd).
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Crissa

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Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2020, 02:33:01 PM »

Which battery pack have you got Crissa?
8.5

Quote
With the 11.4 it was a gamble when I reached 10% SoC or below.  Winter made it worse.
Only if I try going up my street, which hits 10+% grade on the way up.  Otherwise it's fine.

-Crissa
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2014 Zero S ZF8.5
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