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[robby]

I have a 2013 XU that won't turn on. Looking for general advice and a couple specific answers.

First, some facts:

* Last used a week ago. Battery was at 30% when I plugged it in to charge.
* Green charge LED no longer illuminates when plugged in.
* I *do* hear the relay click when I plug the bike in.
* Dash display is completely blank and not illuminated when I turn the motorcycle on.
* Voltage across the battery terminals (both batteries) is a little under a volt.
* No LED action on the 4 battery BMS LEDs.
* All four fuses are intact.

Questions:
1. Is it normal to only measure one volt across battery terminals, or is that my problem? Wasn't sure if there is some sort of short circuit protection where a voltage would only be present if a pilot is provided, etc.
2. Does the blank BMS LEDs mean both my batteries are fried?
3. Any thoughts on next steps to troubleshoot this?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[gregoryjward]

I am not sure from your post if your XU has one battery or two.  My 2013 XU has two batteries installed.
I took some measurements, just to get an idea of what "normal" is, but I'm not sure this will be much help.  One battery measures 7.2 volts or so across its main terminals when it's off the bike, and the other measures nearly zero (about 0.007 volts).  I have no idea why the two would be different, or what it means, if anything.  I don't think you should expect to measure a high voltage across the battery terminals unless the relay is engaged -- meaning it's on the bike and switched on.
My guess is that something could be wrong with the controller that operates the relays and the display.  If removing both batteries and letting it sit for a while doesn't reset it, then I'm not sure what would, or if it needs to go to the shop.
I wouldn't think your batteries were the problem.  The LEDs on the BMS don't light unless they are switched on and/or charging.
Are you hearing the battery relays (loud simultaneous clicks from both batteries), or the charger relay (two softer clicks in succession coming from the motorcycle)?

See also the recent attached FB post from Zero Motorcycles group.

[robby]

Thanks, Gregory. Appreciate the info on your batts and about the BMS. That is very helpful for troubleshooting. I think your controller theory is the strongest I have going right now.

I have two batteries. With respect to clicking/relays, when I plug the bike in, I do hear an initial soft click, which I believe is the charger relay. I do not hear any louder click from the batteries. And I still see no signs of life on the bike itself -- no charging LED, no BMS LEDs, nothing on the display.

Interesting thought to remove both batteries and let them sit. My inclination had been to keep them on the charger since it appears to be doing something. I *do* measure voltage across the individual charging module terminals when plugged in. And at the main charger, I measure about 40V DC coming out (it seems to start around 35 when first plugged in, and ramp up slowly).

Please let me know if this additional info gives you any more ideas. Thanks.

[gregoryjward]

The 2013 XU is similar in most respects to the 2013 FX, so you might search on that.  I think the electronics (except for the inverter that drives the motor) are mostly the same.
As I recall, the batteries and therefore the charger should be somewhere between 90 and 110 VDC in operation.  If your charger is only putting out 40V, that's not enough to do anything.  It also means the batteries aren't engaged.
I've heard that the DC-DC converter, which changes the ~100VDC to 14VDC for the lights and electronics, sometimes blows a fuse or goes bad.  Did you check the other fuses referred to on the FB post?  If there's no 14VDC, then a lot of stuff wouldn't work.  However, if your batteries never engage their relays, then nothing is going to the DC-DC converter, anyway.
I don't suppose you live in the SF area?  I am one of the two 2013 XU's I know of in the East Bay.

[robby]

Unfortunately I'm in Boston (and seemingly far away from anybody who knows how to service this model, including my local dealer).

I just disassembled more or less the entire bike to get a closer look. One thing I notice is that when I plug into a wall outlet, there is an LED light near the power supply that turns red momentarily, and blinks red twice when I unplug it. I can't find a schematic to figure out what this LED is representing (it's not the display LED; it's buried in the wiring), and I don't see anything on the HLG-320H-54A spec sheet that indicates what it is. But I'm going to dig at that and see what it's connected to and whether that output is significant.

[robby]

Update: I verified there is no 12V dc being supplied from the DC-DC converter.  When I manually supply 12VDC via a separate power supply, I get all lights, signals, horn, etc. but no dash display. Could this be a sign that the dash controller is defective? That wouldn't explain (I don't think) not getting DC power, but I can't think of why else supplying DC power wouldn't activate the dash. Or is it supplied from another source? It's a bit of work to track everything not having any schematic, but I can try to trace the wires if nobody knows.

I have verified the ignition and kill switches are open/closed in the proper positions.

[gregoryjward]

I'm not sure how similar the 2016 FX is to the 2013 XU, but the following (unofficial) wiring schematic may offer some clues:

https://zeromanual.com/index.php/File:2016_FX_Wiring_1-1-preview.png

[robby]

Thanks. I did see that. I think this one (https://zeromanual.com/images/a/ae/ZeroWireDrawing_2013_S_11-4_R-1-3-0_grid_highRes.pdf) is a bit closer, as 2014+ models don't have a CCU.

My best guess at this point is that I have a battery fault in both batteries. Frustrating considering they are only 2.5 years old and no longer sold, and local dealer has no way to service them. I can rebuild with new cells, but if the BMS is faulty I will probably just sell the bike for parts. 

[gregoryjward]

Seems unlikely to me that both batteries would develop faults at the same time.  I don't see how a bad surge protector would lead to that.  Most battery issues (I've heard) relate to the BMS rather than the cells themselves, and I believe you *can* get a replacement BMS for the 2013 X-platform from Zero.  Have you contacted their parts office?  The other benefit being they aren't too heavy to mail.  I am not sure how difficult they are to replace, though.  I guess you could get an idea by removing one of them, but be careful about high voltage inside.

I would try to eliminate other possible causes before messing with the batteries in any case.  Where is the central controller in the S wiring diagram you sent?  Looks to me like the schematic doesn't cover that part -- it just shows connector MBB1 and MBB2 (and CCU) going somewhere.

I wouldn't scrap the bike for parts until you're sure it's not worth fixing.

[robby]

Bad news... both batteries are deep discharged... 15.7 and 18.8 volts. Zero tells me there is no salvaging the cells. Cost of replacing them and the chargers is 3x what I paid for the bike 2.5 years ago. I'm so bummed -- this thing is only 2.5 years old (bought as a factory demo in 2015), 1000 miles, six months out of warranty. I'll be parting it out in a few weeks.

[gregoryjward]

What a tragedy.  Seems so unfair to have ridden it only 1000 mi.  You must have gotten a good deal on the bike if the repair costs are so unfavorable... not that it's much consolation.

Is the theory that the chargers went bad and somehow drained the cells?

I don't suppose there's anyone out there selling batteries off a wrecked 2013 FX or XU?  (You may even be able to search years before and after if the cell compliment didn't change by swapping the BMS heads.)

If it's really for scrap, maybe I can help you recoup something from your (shippable) spare parts.

Really sorry to hear in any event.

[robby]

What a tragedy.  Seems so unfair to have ridden it only 1000 mi.  You must have gotten a good deal on the bike if the repair costs are so unfavorable... not that it's much consolation.

Is the theory that the chargers went bad and somehow drained the cells?

I don't suppose there's anyone out there selling batteries off a wrecked 2013 FX or XU?  (You may even be able to search years before and after if the cell compliment didn't change by swapping the BMS heads.)

If it's really for scrap, maybe I can help you recoup something from your (shippable) spare parts.

Really sorry to hear in any event.

My working theory is that the chargers or the CCU went bad, and something about the fault caused the batteries to drain simultaneously. I can't come up with any other explanation to explain how I lost 5 kWh of energy in a week while the bike sat idle in a garage.

I made a mathematical mistake in the "3x" repair cost (forgot that the price I paid was offset by my old bike). The XU cost $5000 new (factory demo) in 2015. The cost of replacing the batteries alone is $6500. Chargers would be another $300. Even if I do all the labor myself it's just not economical at all.

I will look into rebuilding the packs but I don't have any assurance that the BMS is good. I'd hate to drop a couple $k on 18650s only to have a third project on my hands. Maybe there is another way to test the BMS. Or I could go with an offboard charging solution although that really complicates charging at work.

I'll consider these options but will probably part it out. I have been searching for other '13 XU wrecks but there are so few of these things and I don't want to keep it in the garage indefinitely. It's depressing every time I look at it and I'll be much happier to get something usable in its place.

[gregoryjward]

It's a sad conclusion, but it sounds like the right one under the circumstances.  No sense throwing good money after bad -- not to mention the effort involved!

Wishing you better luck with your next bike.