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[Neuer_User]

Do you by chance know what battery voltage the Energica is running on? Also somewhere on 100V or do they use a >200 V battery?

[Erasmo]

About 300V.

[Neuer_User]

About 300V.

That probably makes it easier for them then. What I find incredible is that the standard configuration of the bike already includes AC (3kW) and DC (15 kW) fast charging. As the price of the bike is here about 20% more than a current SR with charge tank, considering the much higher quality components used on the bike, it is actually much better value for money then the zero. [emoji50]

Anyway, let's hope for new development by either Zero or even the entry of some more brand producers into this market. Then this fast charging will become default for us one day.

The feeling is just completely different, if you're able to recharge in half an hour at so many places around. It really takes off any big fears.

I am planning for a 600 km trip in June and am already planning for four charge stops. But each of them will take me 2-3h (with my self built '"fast"' charging solution). So that makes that a two days trip already. With charging only 30min, I would have tried to do it on one day.

[Doctorbass]

This make me think more and more about another solution for being able to use the DC level 3 charging on the 102V Zero :

BUCK CONVERTER!

How big would it need to be for a 13kW 400Vdc in 102Vdc out BUCK CONVERTER? ( a kind of “serie” DC-Dc)

It seem that it would only need a big coil caps and few discret components…. but would be smaller than our actual AC-Dc solutions

Maybe it really worth…

Doc

[winfried]

This make me think more and more about another solution for being able to use the DC level 3 charging on the 102V Zero :

BUCK CONVERTER!


...

Maybe it really worth…

Doc

What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and  some Controller ...



Gesendet von meinem S60 mit Tapatalk

[Doug S]

What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and  some Controller ...

Keep in mind your "big switch" would need to be able to handle the maximum current, just like the main contactor does. That's well over 600 amps at full throttle. Big switch indeed.

I don't remember whether it was Tesla's "insane mode", "ludicrous mode" or whichever, but I remember one of them primarily consisted of the introduction of a higher-current contactor, which had been the bottleneck. They wound up making the spring out of Inconel, which can tolerate much higher temperatures before it loses its springiness than steel can.

Making mechanical OR electrical switches at these current levels is no joke.

[winfried]

What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and  some Controller ...

Keep in mind your "big switch" would need to be able to handle the maximum current, just like the main contactor does. That's well over 600 amps at full throttle. Big switch indeed.
...
Making mechanical OR electrical switches at these current levels is no joke.

True, but needs switching only with power off, a Kind of recabling which could be done more easily, but still a challenge... But  maybe less than a buck converter...

Gesendet von meinem S60 mit Tapatalk

[Keith]

I had to look. "Big switch" is an extreme understatement. Connecting four batteries in series or parallel to a charger or load needs a 4PDT switch. Here's a catalog http://www.filnor.com/pdf/Knife-Switch-Catalog-Full.pdf  A four pole double throw 600 amp 600vdc switch is in their standard line, in fact they have a few choices. However the weight of the "smallest" one is 65 pounds! That's the D-9746 on page 19. The base plate is 28 by 16 inches. You would also need another contactor to make sure there was no charger power while switching. And of course an enclosure for the whole thing. 

[Doctorbass]

 switching parallel serie is simply Not reliable and safe ans cheap.

A couple years ago i have used that principle with my 2nd electric bicycle made of 18650  cells. it was in 2008.

The bike was charging at 12s ( 44.4V) and used at 24s(88.8V)  to power the motor.

I had 4 DIY brick of each having  6 serie of 18p group of cells.

I was connecting twice 2x 6s  as a single 12s18p module that i connected in parallel or serie.

I also ysed a 4PDT switch but it filed.. So i have used 3 of the TYCO contactor Ev200 rated 500A each.

I also used a old style blade switch to make sore both contactor conditions can not happen which would create a big short circuit!!

That bike was the first to get 210km range without pedaling with 2.3kWh of salvaged cells from makita Li-Ion packs











Doc

[Lenny]

I have to agree with most of the things said. I have also ridden both Ego and Eva, technically and performance wise they are definitely superior. But they are really lacking a good handling and are way too heavy., that’s why currently I wouldn’t want to swap it with my Zero. But if that’s solved there’s not much to worry about anymore.

DC fast charging is a game changer and there’s no doubt that it’s the future. Currently the availability of DC stations in Germany is still limited compared to AC of up to 22kW, but that’s changing very quickly. Taking a look at the Netherlands, it’s already solved with networks like Fastned.

I’m pretty sure that not too far from now we will see bikes with batteries around 25 kWh and charging capacities of up to 50 kW (at least on low SOC), the Energica already does up to 20 kW. Even with rectifier technologies improving there will be no way to archive such charge rates by carrying a big amount of AC chargers on the bike. It will waste too much space and weight and will produce tons of heat you need to get rid of.

Additionally it doesn’t make any sense from an economic perspective. “Shared” chargers in a charging station will distribute the cost way better than a single person buying all that charging power for using it just 20 times a year. The first Fastned charging stations have actually passed the operational break even.

If you ask me, every day Zero is waiting to switch to a high voltage system is a lost day. There’s no way around it. I hope we don’t have to wait too long.

[Lenny]

There's something else I forgot to add which might be part of the reason why Zero had such difficulties to find a proper supplier for a new ChargeTank and why charging a 116V bike will be more difficult than a 400V bike.

All the research and development for vehicle chargers is currenty focused on high voltage applications, as the sales numbers will be way higher for those. Check i.e. the 22 kW charger from Brusa: Link
The footprint is so small, it might even fit under the Zero in place of the onboard! But it's only available for either 400V or 700V, and I believe that won't change. Of course it's watercooled to get rid of the heat, but that's also something Zero will have to add sooner or later.

And from Eltek (their automotive line now belongs to Siemens Valeo) I know that they discontinued their 120V IP67 charger, because demand was too low and they are focussing on 400V now. It was stock i.e. on the Brammo Empulse and had 3 kW in a size smaller than the current onboard charger. Siemens Valeo just presented a new one, but of course it's 400V.

[ultrarnr]

Lenny,

The specs for CHAdeMO charging allow for voltages as low as 50 volts to be charged. So in theory it should be no problem to have CHAdeMO systems on a Zero. Zero claimed the some CHAdeMO systems did not follow the specs and would not charge a Zero. You can download the installation manual for an Eaton DCFC systems and there is no mechanism for adjusting the charging voltage, only the wattage. There were several models of CHAdeMO systems that worked well with the DCFC system Zero designed. Unfortunately for those of us on the east coast most of the systems we have out here were the ones that worked with the Zero system. Zero just couldn't see past the state of California and canceled the development of a DCFC system. The more I use CCS charging on my Eva the less likely I will ever take my Zero out with my Elcons chargers again. 20-30 minute charging sure beats 1 1/2- 2hour charging.