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[Kocho]

Hello,

When charging, do you see what I see? And in particular the red triangle flashing rapidly?

Here is a video:



The first part is charging, the second part is in unplugged with key on and kill switch on and stand down. The only "problematic" diagnostic code is 20, BMS Low Isolation (the other codes are for the kick stand, the kill switch, etc.). The red triangle disappears once I start moving and does not appear again until I park the bike with the stand down.

Is this how yours is behaving?

Thanks!

[grmarks]

Did you have the key turned to the "ON" position when charging? I have my key in the "OFF" position when charging and I don't have the red triangle.
If I turn my bike "ON" with the stand down I get the red triangle. Put the stand up and it goes away. I assume its to let you know that the stand is down and therefore the bike is disabled.

[Kocho]

Key in "Off" position while charging. Hard to see in the video, but I am turning it "On" only after I unplug the cable.

[jef.jakobs]

That triangle is just to let you know that you can't drive off (because the stand is down). Is a safety feature. Mine does the same thing. If you open the throttle with it down you'll notice the bike won't move


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[benswing]

Did you call Zero before posting?

[DPsSRnSD]

I'd take it in for service ASAP. I think the bike is telling you that things could deteriorate suddenly. The only light I get when the bike is off and plugged-in is the green charging indicator.

[Kocho]

Yes, that's what I think too. I'm waiting on Zero to review the logs and to get my closest dealer to schedule me for work (takes 3 weeks to get to my bike after I drop it off

On the other hand, it charges fine and it runs fine. I'd rather have a more specific failure so it will be diagnosed and fixed more quickly. So if for example the charger or BMS fail it would be a clear thing. I'd rather get it through a few charge cycles, so if the charger is going to fail, I'll have that replaced at the same visit, and not have to be without the bike again. Some here have gone through several chargers on the '15 models, so I'd like to "exercise" mine now, in case it decides to fail soon.

As ling as the cells are balanced and temps are at bay, I think the bike is fine to use.

The code 20 has been linked to all sorts of component failures, from faulty motors to faulty BMS to faulty battery cell BMS modules. This tells me the dealers/Zero doesn't  know the exact cause and they will just start swapping things until something works. I'd love to be proven wrong by Zero saying exactly what's wrong based on logs, sending the part to my dealer, and having it replaced with a few days...

[Kocho]

From http://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/operational_manual.pdf , so may or may not apply to Zeros, but the explanation seems good. Unfortunately, as I am more and more convinced, a fault like this can only be diagnosed by trial and error and tons of measurements at any conceivable point in the bike, requiring pretty much total disassembly. This is a non-specific condition that I doubt can be diagnosed precisely... 

"This code is set when the BMS measures an isolation breakdown between the high voltage battery and the 12 volt system. A breakdown in isolation can be caused by ruptured or leaking cells, high voltage cabling insulation that has rubbed off and come into contact with low voltage systems, condensation, use of non-isolated equipment, by an intentionally non-isolated design, or by other causes. This error code may indicate an unsafe condition that exists in the battery pack and care must be taken to avoid risk of short circuit and risk of personal injury from shock while investigating the error as simply touching a cell could cause a shock. While this error tends to indicate a real problem, there are certain situations that can cause a false positive.

This error code is an informational code only and does not change the behavior of the BMS. It will not cause the BMS to stop charge or discharge in any way (but other external controllers may be setup to do so).

The isolation fault detection circuit in the Orion BMS applies a very weak, slow (about 1 Hz) AC signal on the negative wire on the total pack voltage sensor and measures the amount of signal degradation to determine if a breakdown in isolation has occurred. The fault is triggered when the 60 second average of the “Isolation Shortest Wave” parameter drops below 3.2 (unless ordered differently from the factory). For most systems, this indicates the BMS is measuring less than about 150k ohms of resistance between the high voltage battery and the low voltage system, but external factors such as parasitic capacitance between the high voltage and low voltage systems can artificially increase or decrease the measurement.

Note: A false positive may be triggered if a large amount of capacitance is present between the battery pack and the low voltage system causing the signal to degrade. Some DC:DC converters or inverters may have large filtering capacitors which can cause false positives and other equipment designed to measure breakdown in isolation may also cause signal degradation."

[Kocho]

And below is how Orion BMS suggests troubleshooting be done ( http://www.orionbms.com/troubleshooting/p0aa6-high-voltage-isolation-fault ). Again, this is not for the Zero, just FYI.

"Resolving the issue:

Step 1. Determine if the system is supposed to be isolated and if other isolation detection circuits are connected at the same time.

If the overall system is intentionally designed to be non-isolated, isolation fault detection should be disabled. Other isolation fault detection circuits operating on the same battery pack may interfere with each other and cause false readings.

Step 2. Check the instantaneous isolation “shortest wave” reading.

The instantaneous value for the isolation fault detection can be monitored in the Orion BMS utility by looking at the “Shortest Wave” measurement on the Live Text Data screen and selecting the “Advanced Parameters.” Every BMS unit has some variation for the maximum and minimum readings, but the readings are generally between 1.4 and 4.8, with the higher number meaning better isolation. Over 4.5 generally indicates insulation over 1M ohm and below 1.5 indicates a likely dead short, but external factors can change the exact numbers.

Step 3. If isolation is degraded only when cold, it may be due to condensation.

Water may condense on cold cables, battery terminals or other exposed connections and create a path for current to travel to the chassis or low voltage system. Additionally, conductors and cells may expand and contract and physically come into contact with other parts.

Step 4. If the isolation is degraded according to the shortest wave value, attempt to isolate various systems while monitoring the shortest wave measurement in the Orion BMS to see if removing a system improves the isolation number.

For example, if a battery charger can be disconnected or fully isolated from the battery pack, disconnect it and look to see if the isolation improves. If isolation improves after removing a part, investigate the cause of isolation breakdown or replace the defective system. Care must be taken to prevent personal injury and prevent shorting cells since a cell may be shorted to the chassis causing the chassis to be “hot.” Simply touching a cell and the chassis may cause a shock. If safe to do so, disconnect any device which may have extra capacitance to ground (chargers, inverters, DC:DC converters or any cabling which may have excessive parasitic capacitance.

Step 5. If the shortest wave measurement is still showing degraded isolation after the above steps have been performed, look for isolation faults within the battery pack.

Isolation faults may occur due to leaked electrolyte, liquids shorting to the chassis, battery terminals shorted to the chassis, chafed wiring, conductive debris or other causes. As before, care must be taken while inspecting the battery pack to prevent personal injury and prevent shorting cells since a cell may be shorted to the chassis causing the chassis to be “hot.

Step 6. Verify correct operation of the isolation fault detection circuit on the Orion BMS.

Disconnect the total pack voltage sensor connector (the 8 pin connector with 2 wires) and ensure that the “shortest wave” measurement reads over 4.5."

[aaronb]

"Did you call Zero before posting?"

Does Zero answer the phones for owners? I have written to their support people in the past and never received a response. My dealer seems to have a lot of trouble reaching their tech support as well. I never thought to call as a result.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

"Did you call Zero before posting?"

Does Zero answer the phones for owners? I have written to their support people in the past and never received a response. My dealer seems to have a lot of trouble reaching their tech support as well. I never thought to call as a result.

I've had responses, but not to every request. I would say what gets them to respond is if they can officially do something about it, so I try to make sure to lay out information as well as I know how and solicit suggestions or feedback in a non-demanding way.

I do sympathize with tech support, so I try to make sure I've troubleshot and isolated everything that I can reasonably accomplish. I do this for my dealer mechanic as well; I figure if I can communicate well with them, they'll communicate well with me and we won't waste each others' time.

[Justin Andrews]

That is NOT the kickstand down indicator.

It might be the Isolation fault indication, I'm only familiar with it on the 2013's which used to flash their temp and warning light in a similar fashion when an isolation fault was detected.

Check your logs, isolation faults are logged.

[nnelson65]

I'm no help in diagnosing the problem.  However, I have had excellent results when calling the number listed here:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/

They got back to me within 1 business day and sorted out my warranty issue the same day.

[Kocho]

This is a year-old thread. My issue has since been taken care of under warranry (replaced motor controller to resolve low isolation errors). In my case, I bought the bike second hand knowing about the problem. Zero had been involved as well since before I bought it, working with the previous (first) owner who apparently got the bike like that shipped to him from the dealer. Zero was very responsive tome on this, both on the phone and via email. Still, took a whole month to diagnose and repair the cause at the dealership last year.