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Author Topic: Buying decision - help needed  (Read 2200 times)

benswing

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 09:31:19 AM »

it´s also unclear if the zero warranty is still valid if one is using such a charger. Did not find a statement from Zero about this.
FYI, technically charging with any third-party device will void Zero's warranty. However, so far they have honored their warranty for people using their own charging devices. 

If you blow up your bike with a fast charger, it's not their fault, but if that isn't what is causing an issue, then they will help you out.
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MajorMajor

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2017, 07:40:45 PM »

FYI, technically charging with any third-party device will void Zero's warranty. 

I had no idea! Is this documented anywhere?
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clay.leihy

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2017, 09:44:44 PM »

FYI, technically charging with any third-party device will void Zero's warranty. 

I had no idea! Is this documented anywhere?
In the US you could make an argument under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty. This is commonly referred to as the "tie-in sales" provisions.

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« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 09:47:30 PM by clay.leihy »
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Electric Terry

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 12:23:32 AM »

Here's the thing, since 2013, Zero's battery pack will protect itself no matter what you do.

Trouble is if the charger isn't of high quality and tested, it can cause other problems which will cause damage to other things.  And so this isn't Zero's fault.  Just one example, if you connect a cheap charger to the accessory port that has large inrush capacitors it will instantly blow your charge fuse, which is built into the wiring harness itself and quite expensive and labor intensive to replace.  This obviously is not Zero's fault.  And if this fuse blows, your onboard charger will not work either.  And I've seen this happen quite a few times.   

That is one example and there are others as far as causing the contactor to open at high current loads because it wasn't listening to voltage, C rate, or temperature signals from the BMS, and this abrupt disconnect can cause voltage spikes over a thousand volts that destroy the main bike board, BMS, or controller itself.

So best is to use an official Zero charger, or one that has been tested and approved by Hollywood Electrics.

Oh and Scorpion, make sure you test ride the 2017 SR and DSR before you decide.  The 2017 S and DS are about half way to a 2016 SR DSR anyway, so the more refined components and firmware are worth it.  There are lots of little things that occurred in 2017 that aren't visible but make sensing current and reporting more reliable and therefore SOC even more accurate, the battery pack even more robust and safe as well as things you can see like the brake line routing.  I would get a 2017 DS first, and the 2016 DSR next.  Unless you can justify the 2017 DSR in which case I would choose that as it will be even stronger acceleration than the previous two.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:36:01 AM by Electric Terry »
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benswing

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 06:18:23 PM »

FYI, technically charging with any third-party device will void Zero's warranty. 

I had no idea! Is this documented anywhere?
Yes, it is in the warranty.
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clay.leihy

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 07:37:30 PM »



FYI, technically charging with any third-party device will void Zero's warranty. 

I had no idea! Is this documented anywhere?
Yes, it is in the warranty.
Doesn't matter, law trumps warranty. They can refuse to cover damage caused by the third party device but not void the entire warranty just because you used it.

That law is the same reason we don't have Ford brand motor oil and use whatever brand RAM we want in our PCs. As soon as Keurig's patent ran out, everyone started making K-cups.

Just stating that using third party parts and supplies would void the warranty, would be a violation of the law.



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Electric Terry

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 11:25:51 PM »

Right, but if the charger causes damage to components on the bike, this is not covered under warranty, only if its a Zero charger, which is tested and designed not to do this.  That's why either you should get a Zero brand charger, or one that has been tested and designed to work with the Zero and proven not to cause damage like the ones from Hollywood Electrics.

If instead of Ford motor oil you used 5 quarts of cooking oil and your engine seized, ford would not cover it.
If you bought RAM from ebay that was a brand you never heard of, and it shorted your mother board it would not be covered

An example is about 8 years ago with Verizon flip phones, people would buy cheap wall replacement chargers, and the batteries would over 4 months swell, pop the case off the back, and the battery would get scorching hot and lose all talk time capacity.
The cheap Chinese charge cords would charge the battery too fast, overheat and damage it.  Verizon did not warranty the batteries, instead they included notes to only use Verizon brand chargers.

If no damage occurs, you can use what ever charger you want, but if you make your own and you blow up al the boards from a voltage spike, this is not Zero's fault.  Unless you are a power electronics technician, I would only use chargers from Zero or Hollywood Electrics for now until even more fail safes are put in place like the phone manufacturers use today.  There are too many ways a simple mistake with a common server meanwell powersupply like I've seen on some DIY threads here can cause damage to the bike if the connection procedure isn't done properly each time and that would be to precharge the capacitors before connecting to the bike if the bike is on, or only connecting if the bike is off and the onboard charger is NOT plugged in, and then letting the Sevcon slowly precharge the caps in the accessory charger.  The charge fuse was designed to protect the bike in a strange emergency, but never intended to be needed, so its location and design is built into the harness and the whole bike harness has to be replaced, or the harness has to be hacked with a knife and then for sure the warranty is invalid and it is no longer factory sealed.  And with testing the Supercharger V1 over a year ago, one of the things that took so long was figuring out the conditions that caused the contactor to open, because when it did, the high voltage spike killed BMS's, Main Bike Boards, and we even killed Brandon's sevcon and he had to buy another and have Hollywood commission and program it for his motor offset.  These are all things that took a lot of testing to figure out and build protections for.

Ask Doug S on this forum, if a charger isn't connected properly to the bike, it will in fact break the bike!  His bike had to get shipped back to the factory last year for component replacement because of a 3rd party charger that had an error getting hooked up.  It does happen and Doug is an Electrical Engineer with 30 years experience.  But he wasn't privilege to the Zero systems and their tolerances, and to be honest, no one on this forum is, so it is advised against unless you are ok making a very expensive mistake.

Bottom line stick to the Zero or Hollywood Electrics tested chargers for now.   Some may say 'I can do it cheaper myself or from somewhere else', but remember, the Hollywood Electrics name being attached to something means its been designed and tested many times to work with a Zero.  There is a very important quality, assurance and peace of mind that comes with that.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 11:39:29 PM by Electric Terry »
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scorpion32

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2017, 01:48:08 AM »

Today is Friday 13th, but i am happy like a kid. Why?
Today my new DSR 2016 10th Anniversary Edition was delivered.

She looks like an angel. Few minutes later i was driving her 2 km around my place. Wow, this feels really good.  ;D
(The pic shows me millisecond prior to take off  8))
Hope that winter is going to be over soon. Could drive her only 2 km, due to missing license plates....., they will come on monday.

Thank you all here for giving me these valuable hints helping me in my buying decision.

Beside: Does anybody know if the anniversary edition, equipped with a charge tank, also comes with a Typ 2 cord?
My dealer told me there was no Typ 2 cord in the package. Odd or?
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benswing

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2017, 03:42:29 AM »

Beside: Does anybody know if the anniversary edition, equipped with a charge tank, also comes with a Typ 2 cord?
My dealer told me there was no Typ 2 cord in the package. Odd or?
It does not come with a cord.  In the US all the stations have their own cords so there is no need for you to carry one.  In Europe you bring your own, I believe.
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 - Crossed the USA in 2013 on a 2012 Zero S with the Ride the Future Tour, see the movie at https://vimeo.com/169002549

scorpion32

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2017, 04:09:14 AM »

Beside: Does anybody know if the anniversary edition, equipped with a charge tank, also comes with a Typ 2 cord?
My dealer told me there was no Typ 2 cord in the package. Odd or?
It does not come with a cord.  In the US all the stations have their own cords so there is no need for you to carry one.  In Europe you bring your own, I believe.

Thats a good solution, so one does not need to carry around the cable. However here in europe its another story. On the zero website they say that the european version of the charge tank comes along with a typ2 cable. It´s expensive. 250€ - 400€. So i hope they will deliver it, else this is really not fair. The charge tank should work out of the box and its advertised that it comes with the cable. Just wrote zero an e-mail, i will report what the outcome is.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2017, 05:43:53 AM »

Congrats Scorpion!  You're gonna love it!! I hope they get you the charge cord and it was just an oversight.  Let us know when you hit 1000 km!
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scorpion32

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Re: Buying decision - help needed
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2017, 09:10:14 PM »

Happy End!

Today i received a package with the charging cord for the charge tank from the dealer. He found it and send it to me.
So the anniversary edition comes with the charge cord too.

Now i am ready to try out the charging experience with the charge tank. At the end of the week it should be sunny. Still 21.2 F (-6 C), but if the roads are clear of snow i will do a test-drive.
If someone is interested i can post some pictures of that Type2 -> Type1 charging cable.

Today i also have registered the Zero to get a license plate. They obviously had some problems to categorize the zero in their database. Q:"Is it really completely electric?" A:"Yes it is". Q:"Really?". Good thing i had the CoC papers with me ;-).

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 09:16:42 PM by scorpion32 »
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