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Author Topic: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp  (Read 5061 times)

Lope

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want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« on: September 07, 2009, 10:44:38 PM »

I'm hoping some people can comment on whether this is feasable...
most electric motorcycles seem to be quite slow.

To compare, I've ridden the Bajaj 180cc Pulsar (12hp max) on the highway and its quite painfully underpowered. It goes up to 100km/h easily enough, but only after holding it at full throttle for 10-15 seconds you can eventually get up to about 115. The Bajaj pulsar 180 is not aerodynamic by any means.
I'm rather used to my 20 year old Honda VFR400 NC24 which made 60hp when new. Its obviously lost a lot of horses but still gets your juices flowing all the way up to 230km/h if you have the kahunas.

Basically I want a really powerful motor and lead acid batteries. (flooded or AGM)
I haven't seen anyone attempt putting this in a motorcycle yet...
http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2120.htm
At 144 VDC, 28.5 HP continuous, 30.4 HP for one hour, 48.8 HP for five min., 100 HP peak
It would require 12 batteries, that can do a lot of current.
I read somewhere you can't do regen with this motor... is that true?

I don't care about range, I just want it to be fast, and as cheap as possible :) It must be able to do about 140km/h.

My 2nd choice would be this motor: 84V 25hp peak http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_sepex.php
but then I'd probably want to run 2 of them...

I realize the main challenge here is getting enough battery power into a bike to run these motors... is it doable?
Are there any guides about what motorcycle frames to use? I've seen people use 250cc frames up to 1000cc frames. It doesn't seem to make a lot of difference...? (As long as the batteries fit and the weight of the batteries isn't much more than the ICE components)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:33:17 PM by Lope »
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Bogan

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 04:03:23 AM »

that first motor weighs 68kg, the second is a much more respectable 25kg. If you wan high performance, forget about lead acids and go with lithium iron phosphates, they will be much lighter, and deliver a higher current for longer periods of time. http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=557 is a good dual motor regen setup, 54kg, but thats including basically everythin except batteries. And would make a good amount of toorque, bear in mind you can compare just the hp of ice to electric, as most electrics have a constant output torque, giving smoother acceleration, i could work out 0-100 times approx if you have a gear ratio/max speed in mind for the bike, for the dual ete-rt setup
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Lope

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 02:35:51 PM »

Thanks for the reply Bogan
that package you linked to is quite nice. 400A @ 72V is 41hp, continuous I'm assuming?
What happens if you need 400A and contactors only seem to come with 200A continuous? can you run them in paralell?
The 2 25kg motors will be a lot easier to work with than a 68kg motor. Plus with permanent magnets it will be a lot more efficient? (not to mention regen)

I'm not keen on LiPO because batteries are a disposable item, thats a LOT of money to spend on disposable stuff. I realize if you factor in max charge cycles etc they're not bad, but still, its not in the budget.

When I've looked at deep cycle batteries, the manufs don't list anything like the CCA, (often only capacity) so how can you work how much current you can draw from them for x amount of time?

Then ofcourse how do you work out how much capacity you need?
Lets say you have a 100Ah deep cycle battery, is it realistic to think you can get 200A from it for 15 mins? or 400A for 7 mins? (50% DOD)
Imagining 6 100Ah batteries on a bike with 50kg of motors is no joke :)
Then how do you work out range at a conservative power output and speed?
Are there any online calculators you recommend?

Once I have some experience with electric bikes I'd probably want to include a small petrol motor in the bike in case of getting stuck :)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 02:42:04 PM by Lope »
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frodus

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 03:21:41 AM »

Quote
most electric motorcycles seem to be quite slow.
Which ones have you looked at. I've seen quite a few that would do over 70mph, some up to ~100mph and worked on the Motoczysz bike that could go over 100mph. Look at some of the TTXGP bikes.

Quote
What happens if you need 400A and contactors only seem to come with 200A continuous? can you run them in paralell?
200A continuous, but much higher peak currents. DO NOT put them in parallel, not a great idea if one fails. You will likely not EVER see 400A on the battery side except during really heavy acceleration.

Quote
I'm not keen on LiPO because batteries are a disposable item, thats a LOT of money to spend on disposable stuff. I realize if you factor in max charge cycles etc they're not bad, but still, its not in the budget.
3 times the life, 1/3 the weight and at a cost that is about $1.10USD an Ah and dropping. They're disposeable, but you get more range, which adds value as well as life (if you don't use 100% of the batteries every time you go out).

Quote
When I've looked at deep cycle batteries, the manufs don't list anything like the CCA, (often only capacity) so how can you work how much current you can draw from them for x amount of time?
download the datasheet for that battery. search google for "xxx model battery" and "pdf" and you should find it. that'l give you max discharge rates and hopefully a discharge curve.

Quote
Then ofcourse how do you work out how much capacity you need?
You said you don't care about range? range = capacity essentially. If you want more range, get higher capacity. If you just want high power, get some stout batteries that can handle the discharge rates you need. Power and Energy are two different things.


Quote
Lets say you have a 100Ah deep cycle battery, is it realistic to think you can get 200A from it for 15 mins? or 400A for 7 mins? (50% DOD)
Again, look for a datasheet on the battery.

Quote
Imagining 6 100Ah batteries on a bike with 50kg of motors is no joke :)
Then how do you work out range at a conservative power output and speed?
Are there any online calculators you recommend?
motorcycles usually get around 100-150wh/mile (150 being really high).
take your pack voltage, and batteries (lets say 72V and 50Ah for 3600Wh). If you are conservative, you could get close to 100wh/mile cruising around 45-50mph. With lead, you'll get maybe 50-60% of their output (due to peukert effects and inability to go past 80% without killing them) so you're useable Wh is MAYBE 2160Wh. Then controller and motor inefficiency, you'd be looking at maybe 1900wh or less. So that puts range (with lead batteries) around 15-20 miles.

100Ah batteries are not light, nor are they very small, it'd be hard to fit that on a small bike with 2 motors.

You need to be asking yourself these questions:
What is your budget?
What range do you NEED?
what top speed do you NEED?
What top speed do you want?
what kind of acceleration do you need?
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Travis

Bogan

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 03:40:56 AM »

that package you linked to is quite nice. 400A @ 72V is 41hp, continuous I'm assuming?

no, not 41 hp contiunous, you would get a continuous max torque, thus an almost constant acceleration. If you are trying to compare motor acceleartion with that of an ICE, the the hp is largely irrelevant, you have to calculate the acceleration using motor torque constant, gearing etc, get a 0-60 time with that and compare it to ice bikes.

Also, 100% agree with frodus, get some decent batteries, lead acids just arent up to high performance applications, and in the long run, lifepo4's are probably cheaper anyway.
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Bogan

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 09:34:12 AM »

did a calculation for you, the two etek-rt's if run at 400A each without a gearbox, could get you to 60mph in 9 secs, 30mph in 4 secs, and 100mph in 22 secs. I dunno what that would equal in terms of hp, I'd guess its a similar time to an average 250cc bike, so about 30hp. If you only wanted it for 30mph commuting trips it would achieve that speed in under two seconds, adding a gearbox would get similar results.
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Lope

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 04:38:49 PM »

Ok, thanks for the info guys. You've made a strong case for lithiums, but will have to see what the budget says when its time to build.
Is it true that lead acid batteries would compromise acceleration, but not really top speed?
When you did those acceleration calcs, what weight were you using? (assuming a basic lead or lithium pack?)
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Bogan

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 03:45:39 AM »

i was using 260kg, including the rider. Yeh most lead acids will not supply nough current for good acceleration, if you are on a tight budget, using a single etek-rt and some lithiums will probably be better than 2 motors and lead acid batterys
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Lope

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 03:24:25 PM »

Bogan: Thanks for the info.
So lead acids will give crappy acceleration. What about high cruising speed. Surely lead acids and 2 Etek-rt motors will provide the cheapest high speed solution? For max speed you need power, not power/weight?
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frodus

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 02:51:06 AM »

more weight = more HP required to move the vehicle at xxxmph.

So more weight with lead, means more HP required from the motors, more current from the batteries, means potentially less top speed due to the load being more on the motors, more voltage drop because of higher current use which lessens top speed.


Its all about budget.

Can you do it with Lead and 2 eteks? Yes, with the right lead batteries, of course! Just might not get great range, but yes. My first pack was lead and was great, got me to 65 but only about 15 miles, but not 65mph for 15 miles. 65mph was peak.
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Travis

Lope

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 05:00:45 AM »

on a flat road, the forces on the bike are rolling resistance, wind drag, and motor power. It seems to me that lead would only increase rolling resistance a bit, which should not affect top speed much?

I've read of new lead acid technologies that can give up to 1500 cycles, would such batteries be suitable with an EV?
http://www.battery.co.za/Standby/sbyASpec.asp?CAT=K

Cant wait for those super super capacitors to go into mass production...
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Bogan

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2009, 04:33:02 AM »

yeh weight wouldnt affect it too much on a flat road, but itd be a dog of a bike for handling, acceleration, and going up hills. Target weight should be no more than 30kg over the bikes standard weight (fully fueled), less if you are a heavy person in my opinion anyway.

No those batteries would not be suitable, for a start they are bout 20kg each, for less than 6v, so >240kg for a 72v pack. Those batteries do not have appear to have very high charge discharge rates either, when looking at lead acids you have to find some with a high continuous discharge currents, also most lead acids dont like to be disharge more than 50% so you only have half the rated capacity available. Do you have a budget $$ to spend on all the motor controler battries charger etc side of things?
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frodus

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2009, 06:00:45 AM »

on a flat road, the forces on the bike are rolling resistance, wind drag, and motor power. It seems to me that lead would only increase rolling resistance a bit, which should not affect top speed much?

I've read of new lead acid technologies that can give up to 1500 cycles, would such batteries be suitable with an EV?
http://www.battery.co.za/Standby/sbyASpec.asp?CAT=K

Cant wait for those super super capacitors to go into mass production...

In the equation to find rolling resistance force, the weight is the largest number in the equation.... and increasing that number has a large effect on the rolling resistance force... still part of the EQ, and it might only be a few mph, but its still there.....

Why use lead when its 2-3 times as heavy and gives half the cycle life of some of the newer lithium technologies? cycle life is based on C-rates.... 3000 cycles is easy to do with 1C rates on lifepo4.... 1500cycles isn't that impressive.

Super capacitors are a dream.... caps only release energy along a decreasing linear curve... so your electronics have to operate over a larger range, and due to the decreasing voltage of the pack, your speed will slowly decrease. They might be good in combination with batteries, but as a replacement.... not unless you go thousands of volts and put some large IGBT's on there.
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Travis

Lope

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2009, 01:42:13 AM »

I see. so lithium is the way... :)
Bogan: not ready to build yet, or consider budget seriously, just checking it out.
Frodus: thousands of volts? surely it would be possible to use a step up DC-DC powersupply with a wide input voltage?

According to what I've read on wikipedia, the energy storage abilities of super caps will surpass lithium batteries in the next few years.
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frodus

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Re: want to build a fast bike, 25-100 hp
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 02:05:43 AM »

Frodus: thousands of volts? surely it would be possible to use a step up DC-DC powersupply with a wide input voltage?

According to what I've read on wikipedia, the energy storage abilities of super caps will surpass lithium batteries in the next few years.

Either thousands of volts with a wide operating range, or thousands of amps with very very narrow operating range.... and a very expensive step up converter. For a motorcycle, you're talking 20kw or more, for cars, think 50kw or more. That won't be cheap....

sure, the storage abilities might surpass bat tech, but electronics to deliver the energy from the caps is a ways off.... thats my point.
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Travis
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