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[MrDude_1]

So I have been researching the heck out of the Zero FX as a supermoto ever since I stumbled across a '14 on ebay with a supermoto kit.
I am familiar with EVs and have built a few, and I lived my 20s on motorcycles. Mostly sportbikes, dirtbikes and supermotos
I have wondered a few things about it, but its hard to find answers as it seems most e-bike riders dont tend to ride as aggressively as I am used to, or they're new to motorcycles.
I did find this one video tonight that answered some questions but made me have a few more:



Most of my questions stem from not having a clutch.

First one is for the track... on both my sportbike (with slipper clutch) and my supermoto (2stroke) I drop down several gears while braking, and use the clutch to keep the rear wheel "loose".. its hard to explain, but the rear wheel is sliding while still spinning and this lets the bike rotate into the corner. Done aggressively on the brakes, it can let you back the bike in... its all down to the clutch to do this well. Also on the sportbike, using the rear brake/clutch settles the bike and limits how fast the rear wheel comes off the ground.. the longer its down, the harder I can brake.

How can I deal with this, without a clutch input? I dont care if its a mechanical clutch or not, but its a input I am missing. Does the bike compensate for this somehow with smart e-braking the rear wheel? or is it a constant amount of max regen that tapers off, like every other ebike type controller?


This one is a bit immature I know, but it has to do with fun for me...On a supermoto, I expect to wheelie often, but I dont always want to go fast when I do so.

On a motorcycle there are two kinds of wheelies. power wheelies and clutch-ups.
On a powerwheelie, you just roll on a ton of power. The front comes up slow as the bike accelerates, and if you keep going you can get to the balance point, but by then you are going FAST. You have to keep accelerating to get it up.
On a clutch up wheelie, you dump power from the motor using the clutch, to yank the front end up... the front comes up fast.. but you are not constantly accelerating, so you do not have to go that fast. You can actually stop while its coming up.

For the zero to wheelie, you need that instant snatch up that a clutchup does, because the bike does not have the power to keep accelerating in a sportbike-like powerwheelie.
From the video, I can see it SOMETIMES has the ability to snatch it up, but not consistently.
I would expect throttle response faster than my CR500 since its electric.. but I suppose they may have had to soften the curve of it somehow...
Since your throttle has to do the jerk of the clutch to get it up AND it has to be controllable under normal riding... it makes it really hard, since it needs to be touchy to get it up... but most people would dislike that the rest of the time.
Is there a way to remap the throttle curve to be more direct?

The last question is from the video... I overlooked the fact they put ABS on the supermoto. While it has its place on bikes, I dislike it for my (admittedly aggressive) use. Does anyone know if you can order it without the ABS?? If I can not, I will be paying the premium for it, only to remove it and have to make new braided lines... on most bikes its a $1000 option.  This is not out of a misplaced dislike of ABS, but rather out of the fact that I like to do stoppies, and I enjoy a better direct pad feel at the lever.
As another question, does anyone know what honda model the pads cross over with, so I can shop for replacement pads if I do not like the feel...?

[Cortezdtv]

Ill type you up a good responce tomorrow morning on the laptop
Thats few to many questions for the phone responce

[protomech]

Section 4.7 in the owners manual describes how to disable ABS. Basically put the kickstand down, turn the motor stop switch to OFF, turn the bike on, hold ADJ + MODE until ABS flashes and you're good to go.

To re-enable, unplug the bike, leave the kickstand down and turn it on. So it doesn't look like it holds across power cycles, as long as you start it with the kickstand down.

[NEW2elec]

I don't have a FX and I've never wheelied but I did watch that video um last night I think and the one point that caught my attention was when he said he was showing about 29 more miles of range.  That means it had a low state of charge or SOC that limits the torque making it harder to wheelie.  Basically on Zero's you have to be going around maybe 15-20MPH before the battery controller lets you have full torque. 



You can go to about the 29 min mark and he hits it often. He has another going up Lookout MT and he's popping em on top of the world.

[MrDude_1]

Ill type you up a good responce tomorrow morning on the laptop
Thats few to many questions for the phone responce

Thank you.

Section 4.7 in the owners manual describes how to disable ABS. Basically put the kickstand down, turn the motor stop switch to OFF, turn the bike on, hold ADJ + MODE until ABS flashes and you're good to go.

To re-enable, unplug the bike, leave the kickstand down and turn it on. So it doesn't look like it holds across power cycles, as long as you start it with the kickstand down.

This brings up another question... is there anyplace online I can download the Owners Manual for a '16 FXS?
edit: I dug around online, and found where they are:  http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/   You would think they would have made it easier to find. lol

I don't have a FX and I've never wheelied but I did watch that video um last night I think and the one point that caught my attention was when he said he was showing about 29 more miles of range.  That means it had a low state of charge or SOC that limits the torque making it harder to wheelie.  Basically on Zero's you have to be going around maybe 15-20MPH before the battery controller lets you have full torque. 



You can go to about the 29 min mark and he hits it often. He has another going up Lookout MT and he's popping em on top of the world.

That looks fun. really fun. The one wheelie he does on the road there did look like it took alot less effort than the other guy...

[NoiseBoy]

One of the reasons I sold my KTM was because it made me an idiot and I was backing it on on the road.  You won't be able to do it properly on a Zero unless you set up a variable regen lever.

You could keep the throttle open a touch to keep it spinning and then brake like heck to slow it down which would approximate it, but I'd consider that risky.

[MrDude_1]

One of the reasons I sold my KTM was because it made me an idiot and I was backing it on on the road.

Yeah, thats why I sold my first CR500 supermoto. One night coming home, turning onto the street that leads to my neighborhood.. I backed it in, transfered into a crossed up wheelie and proceeded to wheelie down the street. I then realized what the hell I was doing, and that anyone on a crossroad wouldnt see my headlight since it was pointed at the trees.. so I set her down.. then a cop came up to a cross street.
In a moment of clarity, I realized I would have to sell this bike, or I was going to lose my license with it. 
So I sold it and regretted it for years.
Now that I am older, married, etc  I've calmed down alot.. I bought another CR500, and enjoy it a bit more responsibly.

You won't be able to do it properly on a Zero unless you set up a variable regen lever.

Has anyone done this? Does the Sevencon controller support this easily? I dont mind wiring stuff up and programming, but I dont want to be the first to do it.
Also, what lever/sensor is this?  A good variable regen/brake lever has been impossible to find for ebike stuff.

You could keep the throttle open a touch to keep it spinning and then brake like heck to slow it down which would approximate it, but I'd consider that risky.

yeah... I cant do that.  On the CR500 theres enough compression for backing it in, even though its 2stroke. But when I ride CR250s and smaller 4strokes, they cant use the clutch/engine to do it.... so Ive tried the braking thing. I just dont have the foot control to do it. I can do it on CR50 motards without any rear wheel braking, but I think the fact I outweigh the bike, combined with how aggressive you can push them (minimal fear of crashing) is for it... I will not be pushing a 300lb bike like a 50.

I am interested in this regen lever though.

[Cortezdtv]

So I have been researching the heck out of the Zero FX as a supermoto ever since I stumbled across a '14 on ebay with a supermoto kit.
I am familiar with EVs and have built a few, and I lived my 20s on motorcycles. Mostly sportbikes, dirtbikes and supermotos
I have wondered a few things about it, but its hard to find answers as it seems most e-bike riders dont tend to ride as aggressively as I am used to, or they're new to motorcycles.
I did find this one video tonight that answered some questions but made me have a few more:



Most of my questions stem from not having a clutch.

First one is for the track... on both my sportbike (with slipper clutch) and my supermoto (2stroke) I drop down several gears while braking, and use the clutch to keep the rear wheel "loose".. its hard to explain, but the rear wheel is sliding while still spinning and this lets the bike rotate into the corner. Done aggressively on the brakes, it can let you back the bike in... its all down to the clutch to do this well. Also on the sportbike, using the rear brake/clutch settles the bike and limits how fast the rear wheel comes off the ground.. the longer its down, the harder I can brake.

How can I deal with this, without a clutch input? I dont care if its a mechanical clutch or not, but its a input I am missing. Does the bike compensate for this somehow with smart e-braking the rear wheel? or is it a constant amount of max regen that tapers off, like every other ebike type controller?


This one is a bit immature I know, but it has to do with fun for me...On a supermoto, I expect to wheelie often, but I dont always want to go fast when I do so.

On a motorcycle there are two kinds of wheelies. power wheelies and clutch-ups.
On a powerwheelie, you just roll on a ton of power. The front comes up slow as the bike accelerates, and if you keep going you can get to the balance point, but by then you are going FAST. You have to keep accelerating to get it up.
On a clutch up wheelie, you dump power from the motor using the clutch, to yank the front end up... the front comes up fast.. but you are not constantly accelerating, so you do not have to go that fast. You can actually stop while its coming up.

For the zero to wheelie, you need that instant snatch up that a clutchup does, because the bike does not have the power to keep accelerating in a sportbike-like powerwheelie.
From the video, I can see it SOMETIMES has the ability to snatch it up, but not consistently.
I would expect throttle response faster than my CR500 since its electric.. but I suppose they may have had to soften the curve of it somehow...
Since your throttle has to do the jerk of the clutch to get it up AND it has to be controllable under normal riding... it makes it really hard, since it needs to be touchy to get it up... but most people would dislike that the rest of the time.
Is there a way to remap the throttle curve to be more direct?

The last question is from the video... I overlooked the fact they put ABS on the supermoto. While it has its place on bikes, I dislike it for my (admittedly aggressive) use. Does anyone know if you can order it without the ABS?? If I can not, I will be paying the premium for it, only to remove it and have to make new braided lines... on most bikes its a $1000 option.  This is not out of a misplaced dislike of ABS, but rather out of the fact that I like to do stoppies, and I enjoy a better direct pad feel at the lever.
As another question, does anyone know what honda model the pads cross over with, so I can shop for replacement pads if I do not like the feel...?

More aggressive riding: refer to link      more wheelies on a fx than I've seen in all those little "demo rides" where dude shits himself soon as the wheel comes up....

When you say "keeping the rear loose" I'm assuming you have the bike throttle held and you are "releasing" and reapplying the clutch lever quickly to keep the "burnout" going while you are breaking and slowing for the corner, kicking the rear of the bike out, (think more like dirt track style of riding) that sideways motion  I LIKE YOUR STYLE   

ok so best way to describe that is a lot of getting used to, its going to be quite different. Not saying you cant do it with similar results but you will be using the brakes more than you would on a gas bike. You can setup the rear regen lever, not to hard to do (personally I dont recommend it) but it has been done with lots of success on here by Burton. I would get a left rear brake and run a 2 way master into the single rear slave so you can have foot brake and rear handbrake (best of both worlds) this way you have a ton of control over the rear wheel and can get the desired slide before burnout you want. the regen lever will act finicky at full charge and cause issues with the controller, where does all that extra scrubbed (regen'd) power go if your batter is fully charged.
Other options to give you that quick "jolt" sideways is set the regen way up, it will apply heavy regen on the rear wheel, giving you that extra little bump sidways

Like I said above its going to be very different because no downshifting, you will catch yourself not knowing what speed you are traveling, overshooting corners etc, (its easier to tell speed when you have gears) and thus using the brakes much more. And now  natural engine braking so on the brakes...

after riding electric for a few years now, I do miss reving out bikes and the shannagons, but then you get back on your zero and realize its much quicker reliable, and can powerslide about 1000x better than the average gas bike.


as far as wheeling

it will power wheelie from 20mph and up

if you have a left rear brake you will be able to make the bike act as if you have a clutch, and if you pre-load the shocks it can be weelie'd from a standstill


the Fx "m" in the video above doesn't exist but it give you an idea of what a zero can wheelie like!!!!! especially if you bought a new fxs with ipm and the 3.3 bricks which are much stronger than the previous ones.


let me know if that helps, or what you want more clarification on

[rayivers]

I realize the speed / traction / braking requirements are quite different for supermoto than the dirt riding I do, but it sounds like you and I are doing similar activities at times so maybe some of my experience is applicable.

First off, if you're used to a CR500 I don't think you'll be content with a stock FX, for SM at least.  Here are a few rear-wheel torque numbers I worked out for rough comparison only, assuming max engine/motor torque & 1:1 (for simplicity) transmission gear ratio in use:

'95 CR500:                             630 ft/lbs
'12 CRF450F:                          469 ft/lbs
'14-'16 Zero FX (10/65 chain):   455 ft/lbs
'14-'16 Zero FX (stock):            369 ft/lbs

Obviously the Hondas will have much more torque in the lower gears than the above figures, and the Zero numbers above will be lower at very low speeds, which affects me quite often off-road.  Don't get me wrong - my 'MX' is way fast for the riding I do and I'm real happy with it - but it's no match for a CR500 using all 5 gears, especially below 20mph.

I've ridden '13 / '14 / '15 FX's, but not a '16 yet (had a chance on an FXS two weeks ago, but only on a slow/super-busy street so I passed).

I know you asked a bunch of other things, but if the thrust is insufficient, the rest may not matter.

Ray

[Cortezdtv]

I realize the speed / traction / braking requirements are quite different for supermoto than the dirt riding I do, but it sounds like you and I are doing similar activities at times so maybe some of my experience is applicable.

First off, if you're used to a CR500 I don't think you'll be content with a stock FX, for SM at least.  Here are a few rear-wheel torque numbers I worked out for rough comparison only, assuming max engine/motor torque & 1:1 (for simplicity) transmission gear ratio in use:

'95 CR500:                             630 ft/lbs
'12 CRF450F:                          469 ft/lbs
'14-'16 Zero FX (10/65 chain):   455 ft/lbs
'14-'16 Zero FX (stock):            369 ft/lbs

Obviously the Hondas will have much more torque in the lower gears than the above figures, and the Zero numbers above will be lower at very low speeds, which affects me quite often off-road.  Don't get me wrong - my 'MX' is way fast for the riding I do and I'm real happy with it - but it's no match for a CR500 using all 5 gears, especially below 20mph.

I've ridden '13 / '14 / '15 FX's, but not a '16 yet (had a chance on an FXS two weeks ago, but only on a slow/super-busy street so I passed).

I know you asked a bunch of other things, but if the thrust is insufficient, the rest may not matter.

Ray

I would probably second this,

I would put the fx more on par woth a 450 four stroke or 250 2 stroke

Just watched a video of a fx and 450f drag racing gives you a decent comparison




But like ray said thats no cr500.......


You would need a bigger controller

[MrDude_1]

Thanks for the info from both of you.

It almost sounds like I want the 650 amp Sevcon controller from the SR... but then I would probably sag the two smaller packs too much.
I know the bike wont be as brutal as the CR500, but I am hoping it can be just as fun... However if I am constantly pegged wishing for more power, I doubt I would enjoy it much. In general, too much power, is almost enough. Way too much power is just right.

While I know it will be a slower bike, I am still hoping for enough power that the rear wheel will be slipping a little under WOT from lower speeds... but how am I going to point and shoot out of corners if I dont even get full power unless I am going 20mph?

It just seems very confusing.  Are they building a supermoto bike, or a middleweight streetbike?
My intent with this bike is twofold. I have a 3 mile commute to work on sidestreets... this is a nice option to have on nice days. I stopped using the other bikes for this as they never ever warmed up... with the FXS, I can do this and possibly ride at lunchtime too.
The other use would be on kart tracks, mostly without offroad sections, but occasionally with... so backing it in and shooting out are pretty much the requirements.
A third use would be flat tracking for fun.. but I suck at it so no racing, only sliding for fun. I know the FX can do this because Ive seen videos of it.

I keep flip flopping on it I suppose. I would really like to test-ride one, however the nearest dealer is 4+ hours away... and its winter there. I'm in Charleston, SC... They should really get a dealer in this state. lol.

Ray, thanks for pointing out the peak torque numbers.

[NEW2elec]

You may want to call Harlan at Hollywood Electrics 323 654 8271   They set up that bike that is on Ebay for the Moto specs.  They are like part bike shop part R&D for electric motorcycles.  Once they get their hands on one of the new FXS's tell him what you'd like for it to do and he just might make it happen.

[Cortezdtv]

Thanks for the info from both of you.

It almost sounds like I want the 650 amp Sevcon controller from the SR... but then I would probably sag the two smaller packs too much.
I know the bike wont be as brutal as the CR500, but I am hoping it can be just as fun... However if I am constantly pegged wishing for more power, I doubt I would enjoy it much. In general, too much power, is almost enough. Way too much power is just right.

While I know it will be a slower bike, I am still hoping for enough power that the rear wheel will be slipping a little under WOT from lower speeds... but how am I going to point and shoot out of corners if I dont even get full power unless I am going 20mph?

It just seems very confusing.  Are they building a supermoto bike, or a middleweight streetbike?
My intent with this bike is twofold. I have a 3 mile commute to work on sidestreets... this is a nice option to have on nice days. I stopped using the other bikes for this as they never ever warmed up... with the FXS, I can do this and possibly ride at lunchtime too.
The other use would be on kart tracks, mostly without offroad sections, but occasionally with... so backing it in and shooting out are pretty much the requirements.
A third use would be flat tracking for fun.. but I suck at it so no racing, only sliding for fun. I know the FX can do this because Ive seen videos of it.

I keep flip flopping on it I suppose. I would really like to test-ride one, however the nearest dealer is 4+ hours away... and its winter there. I'm in Charleston, SC... They should really get a dealer in this state. lol.

Ray, thanks for pointing out the peak torque numbers.

If you relize its not going to be quite as fast, but going for the fun factor

Get a demo ride of a fxs. You wont be dissapointed,
What you described above  is EXACTLY where the fxs will dominate its a very FUN little bike i will never buy a gas bike.... I think you will be plesantly suprised.

First few months of riding I was wheeling everywhere, 6 months later I was making it faster, Im just one of thoes people who has a itch.... So i wouldnt worry about if it I was you! Maybe go to chain kit to change to "quicker" gearing like i think ray^^^ has. You will loose a little on thr top end but lets face it, hows your cr500 at 85mph ? LOL
(every cr250 and huskey 510 ive ridden didnt handle to great at high speed) where as the zero with gearing is stable at speeds above 90


You mentioned another huge advantage just jump on it and go no warming up nothing, takes me longer to get my helmet and gloves on than bike to turn on, and its ready

Demo ride one tell us what you think!!

[MrDude_1]

If you relize its not going to be quite as fast, but going for the fun factor

Get a demo ride of a fxs. You wont be dissapointed,
What you described above  is EXACTLY where the fxs will dominate its a very FUN little bike i will never buy a gas bike.... I think you will be plesantly suprised.

First few months of riding I was wheeling everywhere, 6 months later I was making it faster, Im just one of thoes people who has a itch.... So i wouldnt worry about if it I was you! Maybe go to chain kit to change to "quicker" gearing like i think ray^^^ has. You will loose a little on thr top end but lets face it, hows your cr500 at 85mph ? LOL
(every cr250 and huskey 510 ive ridden didnt handle to great at high speed) where as the zero with gearing is stable at speeds above 90


You mentioned another huge advantage just jump on it and go no warming up nothing, takes me longer to get my helmet and gloves on than bike to turn on, and its ready

Demo ride one tell us what you think!!

nearest demo is in Charlotte, NC... about a 4 hour drive when you account for traffic.  I'll probably have to wait until spring, since they're actually getting winter. Here its 70* outside. lol.

The CR500 gets touchy at high speed 100mph the bars start to shake a little, Ive hit 120 but I started to get a speed wobble. Anything above 90mph is kind of terrifying. The sweetspot for the CR is 60 or below. With my current gearing its especially happy around 20 to 45... so I suppose I shouldnt complain when anyone says the FXS is happy there too.
I should note, I have my CR500 street legal... so it does see a little street time too.


I will see about getting a demo ride soon. I checked the weather for the zip the dealership is in, and  they are getting highs in the 50s. Looks like they occasionally get days in the 70s too, so if its clear streets there on a weekend I'll head up.

[cec]

    I am not sure my experience has any relevance but I wanted to share it.   I ride a 2011 Zero X at supermoto events on the local kart track.  So that is a much older version with a worse motor, lower capacity battery, worse brakes, worse suspension, no braking regen and odd ball size wheels.  I am also not the fastest rider.    Saying all that riding the Zero at Supermoto is a blast.  I stay in the 125cc class and below.  I ride mine more inline and don't worry about backing it in.  I am sure you could back it in using the rear brakes and regen.  Heck 74 year old Preston Petty gets his FX sideways on the dirt track.  See link below.   I also run a small 125 CC gas bike on the kart track and I have to say the Zero is more fun even though I get slaughtered down the straits.  You won't have that issue with the FXS.  With no shifting, no clutch and no noise it frees you up to really have good flowing lines and concentrate.  The one place I can get the gas bikes is coming out of the corner.  The smooth torque allows me to pull away mid corner and out, but they always get me at the end of the straight as I just don't have the gearing to go over 40 MPH and they are hitting over 50 on the XR100's and GROMS.  Your experience with the FXS will be completely different as you will have much more battery, torque, HP and gearing.  You may have to change your riding style from fast in to fast out though.  That is where the electric bikes can kill the gas bikes.  I would love to take an FXS around.   Good luck!   

Chuck

Preston Petty