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[MostlyBonkers]

I'd love to know the exact nature of the issue and where the weakness is. Mine charged the bike to 100% before failing. It actually failed about 18-20 hours after the full charge was reached. I know that because that's when it tripped the circuit in the house.

The short circuit is also an unusual failure mode. I would expect there to be an internal fuse of some sort that would blow. It might trip a circuit the first time it failed but after that the blown fuse would make it appear to just be a dead unit, which in effect it is at that stage.

I wonder how easy it is to check the revision number. I'll start a new topic as it might give us a better idea of how big the problem is.

Richard, I think it's probably a good strategy to unplug when fully charged. Cell balancing probably doesn't need doing very often.

[Justin Andrews]

After I noticed that you get a spark on the meanwells (2013) if you plug in the bike to a live socket, I've always made sure I plug my bike into a socket with the socket switched off, then turn it on at the socket (this also stops arching between the cord and the bike's inlet socket)

Also, my bike charges off a dedicated spur from the consumer unit, and nothing else is allowed on that spur while the bike is charging.
(This one was recommended to me by a couple of EV car people)


So my basic charge routine.
Ensure power is off at wall
Plug in cable to wall.
Plug in cable to bike
Turn on power at wall.

I also rarely, if ever, leave the bike charging overnight.

Obviously I've only done a few charge cycles on my new SR to know if this will help, but it worked for my S (Most of the above routine was adopted to avoid electrical arching at the bike's connector, not to protect the charger though)

[stunthamster]

I hope you don't mind me asking: What do you do for a living and how do you manage to use the bike to visit clients? I love it when people manage to mesh motorcycling with their jobs, even if it's just commuting.

Hasn't Streetbike given you a courtesy bike by the way?

I'm an IT consultant and writer, so I'm lucky enough that most of my work I can do from home; I do like to pop my head in the offices of the clients I have though to ensure they remember who I am. I generally only take a contract if it has bike biking, I've just added the additional caveat now that they have to also have somewhere I can charge said bike ;-)

They haven't offered one and I haven't asked; I don't need it, and I prefer not to have to look after other peoples kit if I can avoid it.

Still, fingers crossed I get it back this week!

[MostlyBonkers]

Thanks Justin. Unfortunately my power socket in the garden doesn't have a switch on it. I plug the kettle lead in first so that any arcing happens at the wall.  I always thought electrical circuits had capacitors and suchlike to dampen these types of spike. I also assumed the arcing looks worse than it actually is. I follow the same procedure as you when I'm at work though. Every little helps! [emoji4]

Thanks for sating my curiosity stunthamster.

[Kocho]

Capacitors, when they are "empty" can draw a lot of current very quickly when plugged-in. In fact, I bet some large capacitors somewhere is what is causing the arching. The arching is the least of your worries in such cases. It is the large current that flows after you plug-in that can damage under-specified electronics components that are in series with the capacitors. You need an in-rush current limiter to avoid that. Good electronic devices have that. I have a "manual" in-rush current limiter at home, for the rare occasion I disconnect my electric scooter's battery for maintenance - when it is reconnected it may damage the motor controller (not the charger). An incandescent light bulb in series between the battery and controller does the trick as it limits the current that flows through it - it lights-up for a second, then quickly dims down. At that point the capacitors in the motor controller are charged and can keep that charge for some time, so when the battery is connected there is no additional current, no sparks, no damage.

I'm sure something like that can be rigged-up to see what the Zeros' chargers are doing. My charger on the scooter does not start blasting at 15A the second it is plugged-in. It starts at milliamps and gradually ramps-up from there to whatever max current I have programmed in it. It does spark if I unplug it mid-charge at full power. But that is just a spark, not an increase in current like I described above, so no danger to electronic components. Does the Zero start drawing full Amps as soon as it is plugged-in? Does it have some beefy capacitors in the charger that get empty while the bike is unplugged and when plugged they draw way over the rated amps for a split second, potentially causing other in-series components to fail? I'd use an in-rush limiter to test that theory - the light should dim down after it first lights-up, provided the charger does not start blasting fill power immediately...

Now, don't you all go and electrocute yourselves trying it! Oobflyer probably knows exactly what I am talking about and likely still has his bulb-based inrush current limiter from his Vectrix. He can try it for us

I always thought electrical circuits had capacitors and suchlike to dampen these types of spike.

[Justin Andrews]

Never spent much time looking, but the Zero charger does start off charging slowly and after a second or two ramps up the amperage, from what little I can tell.

[Richard230]

Never spent much time looking, but the Zero charger does start off charging slowly and after a second or two ramps up the amperage, from what little I can tell.

My 2014 bike's charger does the same thing.  It takes a few minutes to get up to full speed after being plugged in.  And when I ran my battery down to 0% it really ran slowly (I think around 6-800 watts) until the pack got up to about 20%, then it started charging at 1200 watts.  That was why it took 15 hours to fully recharge the pack from empty.  Since then I rarely run my pack much below 50% and when first plugged in the on-board charger starts charging at around 650 watts and then moves up to 1200 watts after a minute or two.

[NEW2elec]

+1
My 2013 starts off at about 2.8 amps and after a few seconds works up to 10 amps.
I have a Kill-A-Watt meter that was recommended by Harlan.  It works well shows quit a bit of info and is a good tool for basic diagnostics and with 2013 you get bars not a %. I reset my trip meter, ride, and when it's done charging the meter shows your total kWh so you can see how much power you used for different riding styles and speeds.  It resets when you unplug it. Also a high quality power strip with an On/Off switch fixes your spark issue.  I also looked at some programmable timer outlets but haven't went that route yet.

[Ndm]

I've got my bike on a block heater timer rated for 15amps, to optimize TOU rates, at work and on the road it's j1772 charging

[Lipo423]

I'd love to know the exact nature of the issue and where the weakness is. Mine charged the bike to 100% before failing. It actually failed about 18-20 hours after the full charge was reached. I know that because that's when it tripped the circuit in the house.

The short circuit is also an unusual failure mode. I would expect there to be an internal fuse of some sort that would blow. It might trip a circuit the first time it failed but after that the blown fuse would make it appear to just be a dead unit, which in effect it is at that stage.

I wonder how easy it is to check the revision number. I'll start a new topic as it might give us a better idea of how big the problem is.

Richard, I think it's probably a good strategy to unplug when fully charged. Cell balancing probably doesn't need doing very often.

Tom,

The issue goes on the design, and the chosen components (but I'm not discovering anything to you with such statement)
These kind chargers are not under the "new technology umbrella", so we should understand/accept a level of failure as we do with our bikes, this is old fashioned technology.


IMO, If they are in the 6th Gen and the chargers still blow up, they should consider replacing their low-cost/quality supplier for a reliable one, and remove another potential issue in their Zero reliability list.

If you account the units they sell and the number of faults it is a pretty big number, this is unacceptable.

Ask to the forum members the number of DeltaQ faulty chargers replaced and you will get my point...

[MostlyBonkers]

+1 Lipo. In fact, I doubt if any of the bike's components come under the new technology umbrella. Even the battery. The cell chemistry has been well understood for many years and I'm sure people have been making battery management systems as complex or more so for a long time.

Is this all down to cost? An industrial quality specialist charger of the same specification may have cost thousands. Zero probably approached a few manufacturers of consumer level products and asked them to quote on the manufacture to their custom specifications and expected sales. No doubt shortcuts were taken in the design and cheap components used to keep costs down and win the bid.

Perhaps all those revisions are just sticking plasters on a fundamentally flawed design. It might just need to go back to the drawing board.  I wouldn't be surprised if water ingress is part of the problem too.

I imagine finding a new charger supplier is quite a challenge, especially when only a couple of years into the current arrangements. There may be a five year contract.

Anyhow, I'm just thinking aloud. As a customer I shouldn't have to think about all of this. As an enthusiast, I can't help it!

The good news is that I seem to have had a successful first charge. Here's to the next 2,000!

[Richard230]

Many years ago we specified a "Class V" reinforced concrete drainage pipe for installation under a highway.  When I went to inspect the pipe that was bought to the job site, the pipe was stamped "Class III" (the typical RCP that is available anywhere).  So I told the contractor to get rid of the pipe and replace it with the correct Class V pipe.  When I returned to the job site to check on the materials again, there was the exact same pipe, with the "Class III" crossed off and "Class V" written over it. Nice try, I guess and like they say, "it doesn't hurt to give it a try". Maybe the inspector will be asleep or a new one will show up.  But it didn't work in this case.  The pipe went back to the supplier and the proper type was finally installed. 

Sometimes quality control stickers are more important than actual quality control.   

And speaking of quality control and stickers, a Royal Enfield owner recently reported on the U.S. web site that a green "OK" sticker came out with the other debris (such as metal shavings and pieces of a cloth glove) during his first oil change.   

[MostlyBonkers]

Nice stories Richard, thanks. Technology moves on, human behavior not so much.

[stunthamster]

So, this should hopefully reassure some folks.

Looks like I'm the ONLY failure that Zero have seen with the latest gen charger in the 2015 series; I had a long conversation with the guys at streetbike today filling them in with any details I have to pass back to Zero who are apparently quite curious what caused the fault.

Looks like I won the wrong end of the lottery when it comes to chargers, but hopefully means that most riders should have a fairly problem free replacement.

[MostlyBonkers]

Great news, sir! I hope you get your bike back soon and have many thousands of trouble free miles ahead.