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[MostlyBonkers]

I thought you might find this article interesting:

http://preview.tapjet.co/morebikes/issue-43-september-2-2015/news/kawasaki-patents-reveal-electric-superbike/

[Apriliarsv]

Cool, thanks

[CrashCash]

I don't see the point of adding more weak points to the frame. Engines have dropped straight out of frames for decades, why not batteries? Heck, I think even the Tesla quick-change system has the battery drop down into a pit.

This seems to be a "look dad, I did a patent, gimme a raise" type of patent that a lot of companies do for resume-padding.

[mrwilsn]

I can't imagine how any of these swappable battery designs are EVER going to be mainstream. If a charging station" is going to invest in EV infrastructure why would you EVER spend money on something that works for such a small number of EVs rather than say installing a >100kW charger that works for many different EVs?!?!

IMHO this is only useful for track scenarios ala Zero FX/FXS.  Which may be all they intend to use it for....if they use it at all.

I honestly believe that battery technology is going to progress enough to make ideas like this irrelevant (>300 miles range). And I just can't see any of these swappable schemes picking up steam in that timeframe.  Maybe if they had introduced this 10 or 20 years ago it would have worked.... until people eventually swapped in a battery big enough that they no longer need to swap.

In addition... these swappable batteries leave the door wide open for companies to rip customers off. If I have quick charge capability I can get trons just about anywhere. But if I can only slow charge or go to a special shop to battery swap then its easier to jack up the price because you don't have options. People in this community would come up with a quick charging solution if that happened but the average consumer would get raked over the coals.

Maybe Kawa should think about actually bringing an EV bike to market before they try to solve market problems with solutions that don't really benefit the customer.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

[NEW2elec]

I think this must be for track use for these as well and i agree fast charging and long range makes swappable batteries "unneeded" but right now it isn't here.  I'll try to post a You Tube link to a scooter you may have already seen but it seems like it could work in the niche of dense urban use.  Much cheaper scooter and you lease the batteries and swap out at little charging umm panels.  Affordable for third world workers and you don't have the financial battery depreciation time bomb that makes EV resales so bad.  Your miles would cost closer to gas miles I would assume but your riding very low maintenance electric.

[GBEV]

So you expect a nice new battery in your new bike but wait.. the first time you swap it you get an old one of indeterminate value

Or start with a depleted one anybody?

Now you gotta go back and hope to get the new one back

Not for general release for road use, Renault learn't the hard way on that with Better Place http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar/05/better-place-wrong-electric-car-startup

[mrwilsn]

So you expect a nice new battery in your new bike but wait.. the first time you swap it you get an old one of indeterminate value

Or start with a depleted one anybody?

Now you gotta go back and hope to get the new back

Not for general release for road use, Renault learn't the hard way on that with Better Place http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar/05/better-place-wrong-electric-car-startup

Haha....great article! I didn't even know about these guys but it gets exactly to my point.  It sounds great on paper but it will NEVER get widespread adoption.  This is not an idea which is truly in the consumer's best interest.  The comment about not even having to charge for the car itself and just making money from battery swaps should be your clue right away.  Expect to get gouged for those swaps and expect them to do everything possible to make it as difficult as possible for you to charge the battery on your own and bypass their battery swap fees.  Maybe not at first because they need it to get adopted but eventually greedy SOBs  will jack the prices.

Quick charging is without a doubt the way to go.  In the USA and in any other country that doesn't have them, they need to bring back charging station installation tax incentives (and preferably make them more worthwhile) so that more businesses like stores and restaurants will install charging stations.

[NEW2elec]

I'm not saying swapable is the way to go for all or even most situations.  But I just did a quick Autotrader search for Tesla.  A 2013 S85 over 100k new now asking 66K with 17K miles on it. Nearly $40.000 loss in two years. Now I bet if you asked that guy if he would have rather leased that car or leased the battery he would give a Hell Yeah. Like I said time bomb.  So when and how you take your screwing is a matter of choice. I admit this and I own a Zero anyway.  The little scooter company had like two 1.5kwh batteries so you only need to get to the next station and they are so small the should charge in an hour or so.  Drop it in check your charge meter if it's bad get another.  But very limited useful areas, very dense crowded cities go to work go back to apartment.  Now lets say you needed to go NY to Miami and you were going to go electric.  Your looking at a two day trip minimum with the hours and hours of charge time (even Tesla).  Now if you could drop in a new battery in DC get another in Atlanta and another in Miami you make the trip same as a gas car.  Pure logistics not a practical trip but just from a time stand point swapping is better.

[benswing]

Haha....great article! I didn't even know about these guys but it gets exactly to my point.  It sounds great on paper but it will NEVER get widespread adoption.

+1

I followed closely the whole Better Place saga, and battery swapping has been shown to be impractical in practice.  Also, tesla unleashed its battery swapping mechanism and you don't hear of anyone using it.

After a little research I found that they opened 1 test site across from a bank of supercharges, it costs $50 to use and you need a reservation.  They invited hundreds of people to use it.  4 or 5 ever did.  Fortune magazine did an article on it in June. 

Basically once you get 200+ miles of range (3 hours of driving) and a 30 minute recharge time, then battery swapping is moot.  Especially as electric vehicles mature, there will be batteries with very different lifespans, so you will want to know what you are putting into your vehicle.  I think the idea of owning your own batteries to swap at a racetrack, like with an FX, works.  But swapping with a bother fully charged, but used and abused, battery isn't going to work.


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[mrwilsn]

I'm not saying swapable is the way to go for all or even most situations.  But I just did a quick Autotrader search for Tesla.  A 2013 S85 over 100k new now asking 66K with 17K miles on it. Nearly $40.000 loss in two years. Now I bet if you asked that guy if he would have rather leased that car or leased the battery he would give a Hell Yeah. Like I said time bomb.  So when and how you take your screwing is a matter of choice. I admit this and I own a Zero anyway.  The little scooter company had like two 1.5kwh batteries so you only need to get to the next station and they are so small the should charge in an hour or so.  Drop it in check your charge meter if it's bad get another.  But very limited useful areas, very dense crowded cities go to work go back to apartment.  Now lets say you needed to go NY to Miami and you were going to go electric.  Your looking at a two day trip minimum with the hours and hours of charge time (even Tesla).  Now if you could drop in a new battery in DC get another in Atlanta and another in Miami you make the trip same as a gas car.  Pure logistics not a practical trip but just from a time stand point swapping is better.

1. Tesla does offer a lease option for the car.
2. If Tesla had a swappable battery option (which it does, as benswing pointed out) I doubt the resale value would be any different.
3. This guy should be happy....his Tesla is pretty much right on the normal depreciation curve for any car whether it be ICE or electric. http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-fast-does-my-new-car-lose-value-infographic.html
4. How many more batteries would be out in the world if everyone was swapping instead of charging? Seems like it defeats the purpose if you are environmentally motivated.
5. If someone wanted to open a battery swapping station, how many batteries do they need to keep in stock? How much space does that take up? How much space does the swapping machine itself take up? What if customers are coming in faster than you can recharge the batteries....need to have enough on hand such that any time someone rolls in you have a fresh (but how old and abused?) battery ready for them.  How many batteries do I need on hand if not every vehicle is using the same battery?
6. What is the cost of setting up a swap station?
7. If I am only partially discharged, do I pay the same for a swap as if I was fully discharged?
8. Obviously a Zero and a Tesla can't share a battery pack so how many different battery types would a swap station need to carry?  Industry can't even agree on a charging standard which has almost NO impact to the overall design of the vehicle....now you want them to agree on a standard battery size AND shape AND connector AND placement?.  After reading the article you pointed out, obviously several companies agreed to do this but never followed through.
9. Is every battery going to go thorough testing to ensure it is still suitable for road use when it gets shoved in the next customer's car?  How much time and effort does that take?
10.  What are the total costs of doing business for a company that installs a charge station? What are the total costs of doing business for a swap station?

I followed closely the whole Better Place saga, and battery swapping has been shown to be impractical in practice.  Also, tesla unleashed its battery swapping mechanism and you don't hear of anyone using it.

After a little research I found that they opened 1 test site across from a bank of supercharges, it costs $50 to use and you need a reservation.  They invited hundreds of people to use it.  4 or 5 ever did.  Fortune magazine did an article on it in June. 

Basically once you get 200+ miles of range (3 hours of driving) and a 30 minute recharge time, then battery swapping is moot.  Especially as electric vehicles mature, there will be batteries with very different lifespans, so you will want to know what you are putting into your vehicle.  I think the idea of owning your own batteries to swap at a racetrack, like with an FX, works.  But swapping with a bother fully charged, but used and abused, battery isn't going to work.

It doesn't surprise me at all that they would be charging $50 per swap (as opposed to paying like 5-10 bucks to recharge) since the initial investment is so much higher.  Not to mention that the swap station would need to buy completely new batteries from time to time.  It also doesn't surprise me that no one ever used it. I am imagining that though process now....Oh, you mean I can swap the battery out of my brand new Tesla for a battery that came out of someone else's car and I have no idea how old that battery is or how it was treated by the 100's of other people that may have used that same pack? And it costs $50? Or I can go down the street and super charge in 1 hour or less while I eat lunch and pay only $10? hmmmm....I'm gonna need to think about this....yeah...I'll pay the $10.

NEW2elec, I hope you don't think I am attacking you in any way....it can be hard to convey demeanor through a computer screen....but this is just one of those ideas that sounds great when you first hear it or even think about but given a little more thought it just isn't practical.  I think just about every EV owner or person who has seriously considered getting an EV has thought to themselves "It would be so great if I could just pull up, swap the battery really quick and then be off".  But reality is that it just doesn't work in the real world.

As I said and others have said as well....at the track its a totally different ball game.

[benswing]

It doesn't surprise me at all that they would be charging $50 per swap (as opposed to paying like 5-10 bucks to recharge) since the initial investment is so much higher. ....Oh, you mean I can swap the battery out of my brand new Tesla for a battery that came out of someone else's car and I have no idea how old that battery is or how it was treated by the 100's of other people that may have used that same pack? And it costs $50? Or I can go down the street and super charge in 1 hour or less while I eat lunch and pay only $10? hmmmm....I'm gonna need to think about this....yeah...I'll pay the $10.

BTW, Tesla Superchargers are free for life.  Money to build and maintain them are built into the price of the cars.

[Richard230]

I tend to agree with mrwilson's comments.  But he didn't include the cost of renting commercial space in a congested city, such as San Francisco, which can cost thousands of dollars a month for just a few hundred square feet.

Also, if the facility is automated in some way, then vandalism will be a major issue.  Right now battery thefts from Nissan Prius cars are a major problem in SF.  The vandals just break into the trunk of the cars, cut the battery wires and rip the batteries out of the cars in a few minutes, resulting in a lot of expensive damage to the car's electrical system. They almost never get caught.  So these guys would have a field day at a battery swapping facility that was unmanned part of the time, especially if the batteries could be used on more than one brand of vehicle and had any sort of value.   

[mrwilsn]

I tend to agree with mrwilson's comments.  But he didn't include the cost of renting commercial space in a congested city, such as San Francisco, which can cost thousands of dollars a month for just a few hundred square feet.

Good point! The areas where its most likely to be adopted (dense urban environment) are the exact areas where the real estate is the most expensive.  Charging stations take up far less space....virtually none compared to a swap station since you would just be putting the charging station next to existing parking spaces.

Right now battery thefts from Nissan Prius cars are a major problem in SF.  The vandals just break into the trunk of the cars, cut the battery wires and rip the batteries out of the cars in a few minutes, resulting in a lot of expensive damage to the car's electrical system. They almost never get caught.

Yikes!  I had no idea that was happening. That really sucks! I doubt that's an issue on a Tesla with its batteries buried into the chassis    I wonder if insurance companies are jacking up rates for the Prius as a result.

[NEW2elec]

Ok first off no I don't feel attacked.  I like the idea of looking at things that have been done and asking if it is just because that is the way it has been done. I see this as a thought exercise.  When you work through the problem sometimes you see the old way was the best way.  A good forum should have different points of view and get people thinking.  So for ideas sake imagine the late 1800s steam trains were changing the way the country thought about distances and time. Jay Lenos steam cars show the natural progression of the steam engine.  All you needed was coal or oil and water all easy to get (in town as least).  Then came Ford.  Gas engines were untested and with little support in the form of gas stations and garages he went all in.  Think of how rare gas was at the start.  If you would have told someone in 1910 what he was going to try to do they would have laughed at you.  Back to today.  The little scooter company was an example of how tight a market it would be.  By crowded city I mean in China or India or South America.  Poor factory workers going less than 15 miles from factory to apartment.  It would need to be ran like a workout gym huge investment up front but with monthly memberships that you know most people would use less than others.  As we all know charging the batteries is pennies so like a lot of other companies you would sell time and convenience.  Now as for Tesla.
1. Yes I knew Tesla tried the battery swap program and it failed.  Like yall said I wouldn't want to swap my battery out with a battery of unknown quality.  But he was trying to change the rules midgame.  Like having a house that is almost paid for and the bank asks you if you would like to rent now.   The scooter company never had the cost of buying the battery so if you get a bad one put it back and get another.
2. I know Tesla's are free to charge at their stations.
3. If the depreciation is in line with other cars I'll accept that fact. But i have to ask why?  At 17K miles you don't even have to change the tires the inside is one of the best there is and the motor should go hundreds of thousands of miles so all that is left is the cost of replacing that battery which scares the crap out of people.
In closing I agree quick charging is the best way to go in today's world. But for electric to take over gas the way gas took over steam it has to do all that gas does.  A five minute fill up to go 400 miles vs hours of charging to go about 200 is a hard sell.  When your going on a "trip " not a "tour" time is everything.  Just like tripping when you walk a "trip" sucks.
P.S. I wish i could tour like Ben.