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[teddillard]

It always seems like a bike builder puts together some awesome bike, then they try to go into the "EV drivetrain" business.  I'm thinking Mission, MotoCzysz, Zero, now Brammo...  who am I missing?  Do we know of anybody who's actually made a business of it?  I can't find any evidence of any of these, or any others. 

Of anybody, it would seem like Zero would be the best contender, in fact, I was kind of surprised to hear that Harley had gone to Mission for drivetrain help.  This is going to upset the Brammo fanboys, but Zero's drivetrain seems the highest evolved, most accessible and available product out there.  I don't know of anybody but some school teams and builders like myself who've used them.  Certainly not any OEMs. 

My working theory is that they develop a bike, work on the bits and pieces, and since they're pretty independent of the chassis, figure it's a no-lose proposition to float the drivetrain as a modular component.  Zero got some funding for it, and now Brammo - so where's the downside, if they can convince investors it is viable?  On the other hand, if it's just bilking investors and grant money, it's kind of BS. 

Thoughts?

[Richard230]

While not exactly on your target, it occurs to me that Zero's success with making a living (so far) from manufacturing electric motorcycles has a lot to do with the experience of their engineering director (whose name I can recall or spell correctly) who used to work for Buell.  Buell made a very successful business out of almost nothing and I think many of the lessons that were learned there moved over to Zero.  I assume that the lesson about not selling out to H-D has also been ingrained into their business plan.   

[ultrarnr]

Ted,

Are they really bike builders? Or are they really EE types that are fascinated by the idea of building an electric motorcycle? If you are an EE and want to build an electric motorcycle lets face it: the power train is going to be the most fun and the most interesting to develop. The rest of the bike? Well not so much fun perhaps. So when things get difficult it may be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting to just focus on what you love the most: electric power trains.

[Richard230]

Here is something to think about:  According to an article in the U.S. monthly publication Motorcyclist Lightning has just delivered their first production electric 218 "superbike" - after a couple of years of development, print and internet articles, journalist reviews and ride test videos of the vehicle. From all of the press you would have thought that at least 50 of these bikes had been sold, but apparently that was not the case.   

(And we don't even want to mention BRD's history of development of their off-road and street models, which have yet to see the light of day.  But boy, do they know how to promote their vision.     They produce some of the best electric-drive train technology seminar videos I have ever seen.  )

[teddillard]

Ted,

Are they really bike builders? Or are they really EE types that are fascinated by the idea of building an electric motorcycle? If you are an EE and want to build an electric motorcycle lets face it: the power train is going to be the most fun and the most interesting to develop. The rest of the bike? Well not so much fun perhaps. So when things get difficult it may be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting to just focus on what you love the most: electric power trains.

Well, Michael Czysz is without doubt a motorcycle builder, first.  I don't think anyone can argue the Mission's not an enthusiast's bike, but I've always kind of felt the Zero and the Brammo were bikes that, at the start at least, were built by guys who had more to learn about motorcycles than about drivetrains...  so you may have a point there.  At the very least, you have a bunch of EE guys in the background saying "HEY!  We could SELL this it's so cool!" 

[roma258]

Ted,

Are they really bike builders? Or are they really EE types that are fascinated by the idea of building an electric motorcycle? If you are an EE and want to build an electric motorcycle lets face it: the power train is going to be the most fun and the most interesting to develop. The rest of the bike? Well not so much fun perhaps. So when things get difficult it may be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting to just focus on what you love the most: electric power trains.

Well, Michael Czysz is without doubt a motorcycle builder, first.  I don't think anyone can argue the Mission's not an enthusiast's bike, but I've always kind of felt the Zero and the Brammo were bikes that, at the start at least, were built by guys who had more to learn about motorcycles than about drivetrains...  so you may have a point there.  At the very least, you have a bunch of EE guys in the background saying "HEY!  We could SELL this it's so cool!" 

But didn't Brammo start off building sport car kits? And Empulse, to me at least, seems to have the emphasis on the "bike" part more so than the "electric" part. Which in some ways was both its appeal and its downfall.

[Richard230]

I always thought that the Empulse had the best chassis and suspension components. I haven't heard very many complaints about the motor and the batteries either, although they could use some up-dating to keep up with Zero's progress.  My only real complaint about the Empulse was the transmission.  It seemed to me to be an unnecessary complication and an area of potential failure in the long run.   

That may be the biggest issue for Empulse owners in the future.  If anything goes wrong with the transmission where are you going to get parts for the device a few years from now?

[teddillard]

OK, I wrote up some observations and conclusions:
http://insideevs.com/busting-motorcycle-electric-drivetrain-myth/

[Richard230]

OK, I wrote up some observations and conclusions:
http://insideevs.com/busting-motorcycle-electric-drivetrain-myth/

Those are great observations, Ted.  Here is my take on why we see a lot of good ideas from small startup companies and then nothing sold under their name on the consumer market - product liability lawyers.  I'll bet that is why Zero stopped selling their power train components to individuals.  Their lawyers are worried that if the owner of the homemade bike crashes, get electrocuted, or otherwise is involved in mayhem, Zero will be dragged into a lawsuit and get shafted as being the deepest pockets.  No doubt that concern also affects the cost of their product liability insurance, too. 

You can sell your "cutting edge" technology to an established (and larger) company and keep your distance from the end product, thereby not running the risk that one disaster by the end user will bankrupt your company and render your backers' investments worthless.  Who in their right mind would want to take that risk?  Apparently, not Mission, MotoCzysz, and many others (just look at the names on the manufacturer sub-forums, below) - who woke up one day and discovered that they had something worth selling, but didn't have a clue how to do it.   

[teddillard]

Well, except you can actually buy a Zero drivetrain, as an individual, through at least one dealer.  But yeah, I'm with you on the liability issues too...

[Richard230]

You know?  I wouldn't be surprised to hear that somewhere along the line between Zero and the end purchaser of a Zero power train from Hollywood Electric, someone had to sign a "hold harmless" agreement.  You should have seen the legal document that I had to sign before I could look at the 2015 Zero brochure and speak with the Zero staff before their new product line was formally announced.  I'll bet Zero does have a lawyer or two on retainer.