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[Richard230]

I think the (understandable) fact that electric motorcycles are unlikely to pay their original owner back in either money or reduced impact to the environment during the time that they will likely own the bike is true.  But how about the future owners of the EV?  Not only will they likely get a very good deal when buying used, but their "pay-back" will be much quicker and assuming the the vehicle is not totaled in some way, it may last for many years as an around-town commuter and if you could look at its entire lifetime, the statistics might change, compared with an IC vehicle.  It will take a long time to accumulate this lifetime experience, as there is no reason that a Zero could not be running 20 years from today, if their battery life claims are to be believed.  But I think the future looks bright in the long run.   

P.S.  My factory tour was rescheduled to next Wednesday as Mr. Walker is in Europe right now and apparently would like to meet me when he returns.  I find that amazing.  As someone who is used to getting the "bums rush" from BMW over the years, never have been able to speak with or even correspond with anyone from the factory (much less an officer in the company) without all communications going through an authorized dealer first (to be sanitized), being able to meet with Zero's CEO is a real privilege.   

[protomech]

When I bought my Zero, I calculated a 100k mile / 10 year financial break-even point vs a 250cc gas bike. I'll see what my riding numbers look like after a full year, but I'm at 6k miles now 9 months in, with 3 months of downtime.

However.. if you bought a new 2012 today at $9k, your break-even point would be only 50k miles / 5 years. And if you bought a used 2012 at $7k, your break-even point would be 40k miles / 4 years (vs a 1 year used $3k 250cc bike). So if you're willing to wait you can do much better : )

In truth, I doubt I'll keep the Zero for 10 years.. improvements in just one year make the 2012 bikes look outdated, at this rate the 2022 bikes will have an optional flying mode. So probably at some point I will pass the bike on to its 2nd owner and pick up a one-year old bike with the initial depreciation hit.

Until that point I'm content to wait.

[machone]

Interesting numbers.

I'm going to try and do a part by part environment/social impact analysis of the bike compared with an ICE equivalent just for my own interest and because the environment is an electric bike strong suit. I'll wait to ride my bike and for other riders' opinions before deciding which ICE bike to choose for the comparison but suggestions are welcome! Any info regarding where the parts are made is also greatfully received! So far I've done some work on the frame, controller, battery and motor. It's a complicated process but the biggest surprise is that everything ends up in one way or another pointing East towards China. Naturally, it is difficult to obtain too much information across the Chinese border but some is available. China is the only place I've ever seen solar panels on lamp posts despite popular media coverage of Beijing smog! The information I have found out so far is a mix of good and bad news. I'm most interested to discover where the Chinese made frame Aluminium comes from ie whether it is recycled or refined?

[Marshm]

Can't you assume the tires, wheels, brakes, frame, etc. have the same environmental impact as a gas bike?  If an e-bike does better with a handle bar, then a gas bike could also do the same.  Things like this have nothing to do with gas or electric.  The difference between the two bike types is gas or electric.  So I don't think the handlebar is a valid part to include in the comparison. 

I find it interesting most gas bikes have e-start.  More popular now than in the past. So they have both an electric motor plus battery and a gas motor.  Is it that much more impact to make a larger electric motor than a smaller one? Probably some, since more materials are used in a larger motor, but it looks to me the gas bike would have a lot more impact to build since it has both systems. 

[NoiseBoy]

I have found some interesting figures on the production of LiIon batteries and it boils down to 75kg of CO2 per KWh of battery.

Im not sure my maths is right but a VFR800 emits approx 250g of CO2 per mile travelled by euro3 standards.  Meaning you would have to travel 300 miles to emit as much CO2 as the production of 1KWh of battery.  Which means you would have to cover the staggering total of 2700 miles on your VFR before you matched a ZF9.   That is roughly the average yearly mileage of a UK motorcyclist.

Assuming that your power from renewable or nuclear as i do, that is +1 to electric bikes.

Figures from here: http://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/202/pdfs/0068.PDF

[kcoplan]

you would have to cover the staggering total of 2700 miles on your VFR before you matched a ZF9.

So my break-even (carbon wise) on my ZF6 is only about 1800 miles then?  Hooray, I am over half way there already.  On dollars, not so much.   

[machone]

Can't you assume the tires, wheels, brakes, frame, etc. have the same environmental impact as a gas bike?  

If you were doing a general or averaged production comparison then yes, that would be true but there seems little point in that, yet, until electric bike production grows. The difference between two ICE bikes production cost can be huge.

For example, take the Aluminium. Recycled Al takes about 5% the energy that primary Al takes to produce. If the Zero Chinese made frame is recycled Al that's great but a comparable Yamaha or Kawasaki might have a primary Al frame which would make a huge difference to the production energy usage. I think the only way to go is to cover all the components in the zero and get at least an idea of where the sustainability effort is going in and then compare. If the brakes or tyres are then the same for a comparison bike it will eventually make the task easier.  

http://www.world-aluminium.org/media/filer/2012/06/12/fl0000181.pdf

Thanks for the link noiseboy. With batteries is it not the same as the frame - it depends entirely on which batteries and how they were made and where the metals used come from?

[Tudor]

According to this (outdated) video of Neal Saiki, where he talks about the batteries, he seems environmentally committed and knowledgeable. I know the batteries are not the same anymore as in this video but for me, it's enough to make a biased assumption.

http://faircompanies.com/videos/view/zero-motorcycles-high-performance-electric-bikes/

I understand, @machone, biased assumptions are indeed not what you are looking for and this might add very little value. I respect your research and will follow your findings with great interest. I myself, however, are tired and fed up with always having to defend the 'greener choice'. Generally, I found them who throw the stones usually have no interest in the environment anyway and won't listen because they don't want to know.

Sorry for the pessimistic tone, I guess I've just heard "How can you wear leather boots as a vegetarian?" once to many.

[machone]

Hi Tudor,

I've seen that video but it doesn't do any harm to remind myself why I got interested in electric bikes in the first place. After seeing the first Mission press releases and being amazed by the performance claims, Zero and what Neal Saiki had to say was my second stop followed by Brammo. NASA, his children playing around the edible battery and US based industry - peeeerrrfect, I thought, and think. What is obvious from that is the intention was good.

From the video, you wouldn't guess that many of the parts are made in China to keep the cost down, would you? Cost down why? Because labour is cheap. Why is labour cheap? Because the labour laws we benefit from in the West and our parents and grandparents fought for are not available to the often under age, under paid labour force in China.

You're right, we're all hypocrites when it comes to the environment - look how many posts have been on this thread, how many google searches I've done, how much energy I personally have expended just to find out some worthless information that won't effect whether I or anybody else buys or doesn't buy a Zero. Compared to the population crisis(https://plus.google.com/s/how%20many%20people%20can%20live%20on%20planet%20earth) electric vehicles pale in comparison anyway.

However, one of my big drivers is that I hate to be treated like an idiot. I'll happily ride an electric motorbike and feel good that I'm likely doing my bit to reduce certain emissions long term. However, I think I also have the right to ask the question about how sustainable it really is. If I know the truth, I'm in a lot better position to defend the bike from detractors, of which there are many.

Although Zero have been gracious enough to reply to my email and sent some good general links, I want to know about MY bike. I know Aluminium is the most recycled metal on the planet - but is the frame Aluminium that MY zero is made from recycled? If not, it's a very high energy consumptive process.

From what I've learned so far, things are looking ok for my Zero. Although some of the parts are shipped in a high carbon way, they're only light parts that are otherwise manufactured very responsibly with all reasonable steps being taken .. great! There may be one or two less than perfect elements but as has been said, progress won't be one giant leap and being green costs money. However, and I repeat, if I know fact it's far more convincing than blathering on about Ice Caps and polar bears etc

[NoiseBoy]

I have had a different experience with buying the zero.  I like electric bikes because of the power delivery, ease of use, lack of trips to the gas station and because I am fed up of the dirty time consuming and fiddly work required to keep an ICE running.  When people asked about the environment I told them I didn't really care but I love riding my bike.

What amazes me is that since riding it my view has totally changed.   I have always strived for efficiency not just in machinery but the switch in my mind was sitting in traffic with the zero totally quiet and hearing the hundreds of cars sitting there with engines running and smoke streaming from the exhaust and I just thought WHY? There is no need for all this waste and nobody has to sacrifice their lifestyle to achieve a reduction in their energy waste.

I'm now much more conscious about energy use so to me it doesn't matter if the zero is better for the environment because the change in attitude is far more important.

[Richard230]

I am in Noiseboy's camp when it comes to why I ride electric.  While I can appreciate trying to save the environment, it is just too big a subject for me to wrap my thoughts around.  But the smaller question of why I like to ride an electric motorcycle was expressed well by the "Boy".   

[Marshm]

If the theory is to show the Zero has less impact, then I guess the aluminum frame does matter for that comparison.  But that just shows one brand, or maybe just one bike has less impact.  It doesn't say anything about electric.  I think I understand the point now.  Those people who look at recycled content numbers when they shop for random items at the store would probably be interested in learning the whole story on a particular bike.  I am not one of those.  I mostly care about the difference between electric and gas.  If the electric drive was lower impact than gas bikes, yet a particular gas bike had a bunch of recycled materials etc, that made it to be a lower impact product, I would still give more credit to electric for being lower impact.  All those other items could be done for any bike.  If it really turned out that gas bikes started to really reduce their impact in other areas than the gas drive system, and made bikes with much less impact compared to electric bikes, would you really put down the electic bike and go buy a gas one?  I wouldn't go that route.

[RickSteeb]

I am in Noiseboy's camp when it comes to why I ride electric.  While I can appreciate trying to save the environment, it is just too big a subject for me to wrap my thoughts around.  But the smaller question of why I like to ride an electric motorcycle was expressed well by the "Boy".   

I am hopeful that the $900 check from California Air Resources Board, on the condition that I keep my Zero for three years, was based on rational thinking.   

[dahlheim]

I am in Noiseboy's camp when it comes to why I ride electric.  While I can appreciate trying to save the environment, it is just too big a subject for me to wrap my thoughts around.  But the smaller question of why I like to ride an electric motorcycle was expressed well by the "Boy".   

I am hopeful that the $900 check from California Air Resources Board, on the condition that I keep my Zero for three years, was based on rational thinking.   

really?  lol

[Richard230]

I am in Noiseboy's camp when it comes to why I ride electric.  While I can appreciate trying to save the environment, it is just too big a subject for me to wrap my thoughts around.  But the smaller question of why I like to ride an electric motorcycle was expressed well by the "Boy".   

I am hopeful that the $900 check from California Air Resources Board, on the condition that I keep my Zero for three years, was based on rational thinking.   

You will also love the rational thinking that requires you to retun some of that $900 back to the State and to the IRS come income tax time.  The government giveth and the government taketh away.