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[Iowa]

In another thread, manlytom had some advice for me, which I sort of took:

don't want to make you worried but I am yet to find out how to upgrade from my Zero S 2010 to items from the 2011 model. Guess if I end up needing a new battery I will find out. In terms of size it will fit. electronics etc. not sure.

You might quiz Zero on upgrades and what this in particular entails.

The bike is fun to commute with, ride around, and the 2011 models add a lot of missing items - belt drive, 17" tires, better battery pack, controls displays. Would love to "upgrade" to all of these but guess I need to try and trade-in when the bikes come out in Australia eventually.

So I email Zero March 23rd, received a reply March 24th, responded March 24th, and haven't heard back.  Below is the back-and-forth...

My Inquiry

I'm interested in a 2011 DS.  The Locator on the web site isn't showing me the closest place I can go to see one.

I'm curious about the upgradability of the bikes.  I saw Neal Saiki's Google Tech Talk presentation where he mentions the bikes would be upgradable.  Are parts like the dash and power pack from the 2011 DS going to be able to go into the 2010 DS models ?

Reply from Zero:

We are still in the process of getting a dealer set up near you.
At this time the closest dealer we have is in Oklahoma City

When Neal was talking about the upgradability of our bikes he was talking mostly about the battery.
All of our batteries are modular so they can come out and be replaced.
As technology improves I am sure we will have new  batteries that will fit in the older bikes.

I replied back promptly, assuming it must be easy to figure out who the Zero dealer in Oklahoma City would be--it's not.  I think I remember Neal specifically saying the dash was going to be upgradable.  Maybe that was a longer-term-goal. 
So my reply:

My only question would be "can I put a 2011 Zero DS battery in a 2010 Zero DS bike?"

(I see some leftover/used 2010 DS bikes around.  If I can't get ahold of a 2011 model, I'm wondering what I can do with a 2010.)

I understand this is a relatively small company with limited resources at this point, so I don't expect prompt answers to my every little question.  My best customer-interface so far has been Harlan at Hollywood Electrics.  I'll be voting there with my dollars.  Hope this gives some insight to my experience so far.
Now, shifting gears a little bit regarding upgrades...  The Zero gets you a basic E-bike platform.  In a few years, as everybody's batteries improve, does anyone think it would be possible to get another company's battery/controller to connect to the Agni motor?  (Maybe an EV supplier like electricmotorsport.com?)  Seems like the nice rectangular area where Zero's power pack sits would make using something different fairly straight-forward.  (As opposed to the Brammo Enertia, which is like a stair-step of batteries sitting on the slanted frame.)

[gasdive]

Following your shifting gears (what gears, it's electric, we don't need no stinkin gears)

I don't think you'd need anyone else's controller.  The controller fitted to mine is an off the shelf Alltrax AXE4855 R5.  Translation: it's a fully progammable 48 volt (nominal) that can produce 500 amps designed for series wound motors contained in a large (8.5 inch) heatsink box.  http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_AXE.html  You can get software to program this type of controller, http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_ControllerPro.html

I don't know what drives the dash, so that might need to be replaced by something else (there are a couple of things on the market).  I don't know how the fan is turned on and off or the power shut down if it overheats. 

The charger is off the shelf with an OEM program http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml.  It doesn't appear that they allow user reprogramming but they do say that field service staff can reprogram them to suit different chemistries. 

The mounts for the agni motors seem to be all the same as near as I can tell from their website, so it should be quite possible to swap to a different one.  Zero says that the motor comes to them tapped with imperial threads, but the agni website says they're tapped with M8.  So you might need different bolts.  The 119R motor should fit (I think) which would allow a higher rpm.  http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=60  You could also run a higher voltage (good if you're running R series motors that can spin faster) but that would mean a different controller and battery pack.  Zilla's aren't made anymore but are too big and aren't weather proof anyway.

The battery pack would need to be restuffed with batteries (even if you don't change the voltage the pack will wear out).  You can buy the molicel batteries but they are only rated for 300 charge discharge cycles by molicel (Zero seem to rate them for far far more but haven't explained the reasoning behind that).  I spoke to this guy http://www.lightningev.comuf.com/ and he thinks he can restuff the pack with A123 cells that are rated for 1000-6000 cycles for about the same cost as a new Zero pack (and it should last 3-18 times longer) however the energy density is lower and so unless you put in more cells (where?) the range would be lower.  It would also probably not play nicely with the existing software.

[Iowa]

Thanks for the post!  That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.  I recognized the Agni in the Zero bike descriptions, but I figured I'd have to wait for the bike to start tracking the rest of the parts.  The 2011 bikes might still be a little different, too, I guess.

I remember hearing the power pack had microprocessors in it.  It sounded like a "smart battery."  I'm not clear on how this affects the controller or charger.  If they're OEM, there probably wasn't additional functionality added to make either device talk to only the Zero power packs.  So if you replace the pack with a custom battery configuration, is there a chance the controller or charger won't "recognize" it, and then refuse to operate?  My main concern is upgrading/replacing the batteries after a few years as I assume higher energy density technologies will become available.  Also, if Zero doesn't go down the original path of planned upgradability, I'll have to come up with something. 

Great blog, by the way!

[gasdive]

I think you're right that the battery has smarts in it.  There's definately some smarts somewhere but I'm not sure where.

Would be nice if we could get hold of a service manual (assuming it's better written than the owners manual)

=:)

[Harlan]

So if you replace the pack with a custom battery configuration, is there a chance the controller or charger won't "recognize" it, and then refuse to operate? 

The controller and charger are both reprogrammable.  The upgrade path should be straightforward should a powerpack with a new chemistry be released in the future.

Hope that helps!

[NewAgeRetroHippie]

So has anyone had the balls to go and reprogram the controller?  If so I'd like to see the profiles you've made. 

[zap mc]

the stumbling block will be the battery management system that is contained within the battery box which interfaces with the clock unit