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Author Topic: where do I start? Donor bike?  (Read 7512 times)

Bogan

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2011, 07:33:04 AM »

do you work at brammo or something gasdive?  ::) the r1200s is an adventure bike, you do realise they made sportsbikes 25 years ago as well? take my kr1 for example (only 23 years old but close enough)

KR1
55hp and 225kmhr, gives 6.4hp for 110 (looks better than the busa because the drag equation isn't perfect and that is probably crank hp), so yeh, old bikes are just as good as new ones. As you've illustrated, lead acids aren't practical or cost effective for highway speed bikes.

But you could still buy the batteries (lithium iron) and all parts (inlcuding bike) for less than half the price of an Empulse 10.

and if we go to his 72kmhr requirement, that drops to around 2hp, add in some rolling drag losses and call it 3kW half an hour commute time is 1.5kwHr, round it to 4 for contingencies and DOD and you'll need a 55Ahr 72V pack. Works out to a draw of .75C so all good for most deep cycle batteries. Around 10 of the ones you listed (not sure if they are the best though) at 100kg and <2000bucks. I think I'd still go with the lithium iron cells for this application though.

another option, (and the one I've chosen) is to get a good motor, frame, controller, and some 'tester' batteries, to get it up and running at half speed, then once I have a bit more money, do a battery upgrade. The 'tester' batteries were around 1/6 the price of lithium ones when I bought. But even the 'tester' batteries are good enough for my commute.
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gasdive

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2011, 02:28:10 PM »

do you work at brammo or something gasdive? 

I thought we could have different *opinions*.   Aparently if I hold a different *opinion* to you I could only do that if I'm getting paid by some evil corporation?


You do some math to show that if he's prepared to go very slowly, he can build a 25 year old bike for less than 7000 dollars. 

Or if he's not happy with the idea of building a 25 year old motorcycle, he can buy a bran new enertia (that does 100 km/h).  He hasn't said which state in the US he lives in, but here's the prices in some states with rebates:
Oklahoma 4059
Colorado 4225
Illinos 4240
Hawaii 5597
California 5834

My *Opinion* is that 4-6000 dollars for a bran new motorcycle represents better value for money than 7000 dollars and 100 hours of your time to build a 25 year old motorcycle.   The hotrod community who also build expensive old cars and the chopper community who build expensive old motorcycles have a *different opinion*.   As I've said several times, they're *both valid* opinions.  As I've said before, if his goal is fun building and the satisfaction of having made something himself then go ahead and build a bike.  If his goal is to ride to work on an electric bike, then he's better off buying one.  I haven't said, only implied, if he only has 1000 dollars to spend, then his best option is the bus. 


=:)
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Bogan

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 04:04:43 AM »

do you work at brammo or something gasdive? 

I thought we could have different *opinions*.   Apparently if I hold a different *opinion* to you I could only do that if I'm getting paid by some evil corporation?

of course we can, it was just that you put such a biased and misleading slant on the numbers for old bikes, suggests a vested interest. And you still don't understand DIY/modding, that 25 year old bike will be easily worth double what was paid in construction for it to the creator, of course that's only if it performs as you want it to; if not, it isn't worth so much, so planning is the key! There is a hell of a lot of satisfaction to be had from motorcycle customisation, those who don't are missing out, and those who do, know the more you customise, the better the result :D
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gasdive

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 04:36:34 AM »

I think I do understand the culture of modifying vehicles.  That's why I drew the comparison between electrics and Hot Rodding and Chopper cultures.   I've got a friend who builds hotrods. 

Thing is that this guy has come here expressing a desire for an electric vehicle to get to work.  If someone came on to a Hot Rod forum and said "I need a car to drive to work and I have some small amount of money to spend", would the right advice for that person be to buy a 1938 Ford Coupe spray it in primer and put a temporary engine in it while they fix it up, with the idea that would get them around 'till they could afford a 454 engine, 9" diff, 350 tranny, disc brake front end, 8 coats of paint and a chop top?  Would you justify that by saying that it will be worth twice as much to you at the end?

Well it might be worth twice as much to him, but it's not the right solution for someone in that position as decribed. 

If he came on and said he was tossing up between a '38 ford and a '38 chev, then the advice would be *completely* different.

If his goal is "an electric motorcycle to ride to work" then my opinion is that buying one is going to be better than building one, but either option is going to cost more money than he has.   I get the feeling that he only considered building because he couldn't afford to buy one.  Just like building a hotrod costs more than buying a Yaris (that is far better by every objective measure), building an electric bike costs more (now that they're available for sale) than buying a ready made one (for equivalent performance).  You may see that as a horribly bias opinion.  That's your right. 

=:)
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Bogan

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2011, 08:09:13 AM »

I take no exception to you expressing your opinion, but putting up shonky figures in a build sub-forum to convince members not to build at all kinda ticks me off. Your posts seem to be less about helping the guy, and more about convincing him to make the same choice you did, not cool.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 08:11:47 AM by Bogan »
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gasdive

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 06:44:15 AM »

I don't think my figures were shonky, I showed my reasoning for each one. 

Bogan said it all really: "round up to 5k for contingencies, and you could get a very nice bike, provided you are able to do the assembly and bulk of the fabrication yourself."

Or you can buy a complete factory built bike for 3500

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1582.msg4151#msg4151

=:)
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gasdive

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 09:59:46 AM »

Philosophy time.

A bit about me first.  As my name suggests I've got an interest in diving.  Significantly I've got an interest in mixed gas diving.  I took up this sport at a time when there was no training available for surface oriented mixed gas diving at all.  There were no readily available decompression tables.  I taught myself, which was hard as most of the available information was either classified or proprietary.    Still I managed to do it and survive, even writing my own decompression tables for gas mixes that no-one else was using.  Lots of people didn't survive.  I heard a little later that the death rate for mixed gas diving was running at about 20% per dive.  I think that was an over estimate, but it was pretty high. 

Then I started to get interested in closed circuit mixed gas diving.  There was only one “available”
rebreather at the time.  They were five years wages each, minimum order of five and only available to reputable governments.  And I'm not kidding about the “reputable governments” bit.  It was classified as a weapon just like the guided missiles made by the same company and every bit as hard to obtain.

So I made my own.  Not only did I make my own, I was a joint founder of AARG which was a group of like minded individuals who were interested in building their own rebreathers.   â€œSo I made my own” encapsulates a 5 year journey that took me to some interesting places (including working for an underwater electric vehicle factory), cost me at least tens of thousands of dollars and at least 8000 hours of my time.   Perhaps the amount of research I did was overkill but unlike an electric motorcycle, that simply stops, if a rebreather goes wrong the least dangerous thing that will happen is you will inhale a saturated solution of calcium hydroxide (like the drain cleaner, DrainO).   More usually you will go to sleep and drown, or convulse and drown or surface and die of the bends.

I think my home build credentials are impeccable.  I've done it, I've supported it, I've helped others do it.

So when would I build a rebreather and when would I buy one?  In the days when there were none available, the choice was easy.  You build or go without.  Now 20 years later there are factory built ones around (most are copies of the AARG machines).  Now I'd only build if I was going to build something that did things that the factory machines can't do.  Cost is part of the reason.  It's a lot cheaper to buy the factory kit.  They buy their parts in bulk and there's little wastage.  For me if I need a tube that's 300 mm long I have to buy a 6 metre pipe to get it.  I spend a day of my time researching where I can buy said pipe and I have to drive to the pipe merchants and buy just one at full retail.  The factory spends a day researching, gets a pallet of 50 delivered at wholesale price and makes 1000 tubes.  For each rebreather part they spend a few seconds and a small part of a dollar where I spend a day and 50 dollars.  If I need to put a tapered thread on the inside and outside of a fitting, I buy a tap and die.  They're 600 dollars each and I use them both twice.  The so each fitting costs me 300 dollars.  Compare that with the factory who also spends 600 dollars each but uses them 2000 times.  So each fitting costs them 30 cents.  Multiply that out for the hundreds of parts involved, include all the parts that you've bought and then discovered they weren't quite right and all the special tools required and you soon discover that building yourself is the most expensive and time consuming way to do it.  I see the lessons learnt from building rebreathers as directly applicable to electric bikes. 

Safety is the other reason.  It's not as much of a concern on an electric bike.  They're far less likely to kill you than rebreathers.  But it's still a concern.  Yes they're slower than the ICE bikes they're based on, but there are a lot of hacks that you're going to be the one out there testing.  I'd rather have the factory test riders take that risk for me.  Again that's a value judgement.  I've taken plenty of risks in the past but only after I'd thought them through and determined that there was no way to do what I wanted without taking those risks. 

Remember that blog I linked to?  I really strongly identified with that guy.  He immersed himself in the electric bike world in order to complete his project.  I did the same in the rebreather world (such as it was then).  He built a lot and then discarded what he'd built as he learnt more.  I had the same experience.  He made a lot of friends along the way.  So did I.  In the end he died while testing.  I didn't but I sure came close.

So right now if you apply the criterion that I use for rebreathers, “only build if I was going to build something that did things that the factory machines can't do” that leaves you with a lot of scope.  There are only really 3 bikes on the market at the moment.  The Zero dirtbike, the Zero street bike and the Brammo street bike (all three have two different versions, but they're really the same bikes).  There are others coming like the Brammo 10.0 but if there's one thing I've really learnt from 'breathers it's that it's much easier to write a spec sheet than it is to deliver a product.  So the list of things that current electrics can't do or can't be is long.  No two seat bikes yet.  No bikes with a freeway range beyond about 20 km.  No bikes with a top speed over 110 km/h.  No choppers, no trials bikes, no drag bikes, no faired bikes.  If you're wanting to home build a bike that is or does any of those things, then hats off to you!  Go forth and produce something amazing.  Tell the rest of us how you did it (like I did with rebreathers).  Home building now should be the realm of the incredible one off work of art. 

If you say you want to do the equivalent of building a rebreather that is more dangerous and has less range than a factory machine then I will continue to suggest that you just buy a factory one.  I'll even do it on a home brew sub section of an electric vehicle forum.

=:)
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Biff

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 09:35:15 PM »


Remember that blog I linked to?  I really strongly identified with that guy.  He immersed himself in the electric bike world in order to complete his project.  I did the same in the rebreather world (such as it was then).  He built a lot and then discarded what he'd built as he learnt more.  I had the same experience.  He made a lot of friends along the way.  So did I.  In the end he died while testing.  I didn't but I sure came close.


I believe Travis Gintz (the eVFR guy) is still allive and well, and posts as Frodus on several different web forums such as Endless Sphere

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6092

The guy who died was Matt Dieckmann, who I believe was a friend of Travis, and many who were involved in electric motorcycle racing.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/matt-dieckmann-killed/

Anyways, GasDive, I agree with your point, and have been following this thread with great interest, it is good to see the differences of *opinions*

-ryan
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gasdive

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2011, 02:16:37 AM »

Sorry, I've got the two confused. 

I hope I haven't upset anyone.  As I said, I strongly identify with those (two) and that sort of experience and I really feel I could fit neatly into those shoes.

Cheers Jason =:)
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Bogan

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2011, 02:21:22 AM »

If you say you want to do the equivalent of building a rebreather that is more dangerous and has less range than a factory machine then I will continue to suggest that you just buy a factory one.  I'll even do it on a home brew sub section of an electric vehicle forum.

See, there you go again, you've provided no evidence to show a home built bike is more dangerous than a factory one (in fact with the zero s etc still in their infancy, I wouldn't be surprised if a donor chassis would handle better), yet you say it is. People coming to the home brew will be far better off with an unbiased evaluation of their options, rather than somebody just telling them what to do.
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frodus

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2011, 12:23:39 AM »

Chill out Bogan....

My first bike had 72V and 36Ah of SLA and a K91 motor. It cost me about $2k to build. Range was about 15 miles, it was heavy and topped out at 60mph.

Then I wanted more range.... so I went lithium and should be able to get 80-100mph and about 50 miles or so. Cost is over $8k with an AC15, Lithium, Full BMS and a DeltaQ charger and its not even done yet. Still need to build a battery box and paint the fairings and wire it all up. I expect to spend another $1-2k.

The Empulse 10.0 runs about $11k with all the federal incentives and discounts in oregon. Comparatively, the 6.0 would cost about $7900 with incentives for federal and oregon. Its so low in fact, that I actually considered parting out my project and just buying an Empulse. An Enertia would cost just over $7000.

Please don't try to argue about how you can build for less. I'm sure you can get parts for less, used and throw on an old outdated chassis that needs work/paint/parts. And I'm sure you can machine your own parts. But how much is your time worth? Sure its a fun project, but in the end, whats the bottom line? Add up all your parts cost, labor, research, etc and compare to the cost of a Brammo......try to compare apples to apples, and the manufactured bike will win. My bike will cost quite a bit in the end, and it'l be fun and a huge learning experience, but cheaper? not even close.




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Travis

Bogan

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Re: where do I start? Donor bike?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2011, 06:10:42 AM »

Please don't try to argue about how you can build for less. I'm sure you can get parts for less, used and throw on an old outdated chassis that needs work/paint/parts. And I'm sure you can machine your own parts. But how much is your time worth? Sure its a fun project, but in the end, whats the bottom line? Add up all your parts cost, labor, research, etc and compare to the cost of a Brammo......try to compare apples to apples, and the manufactured bike will win. My bike will cost quite a bit in the end, and it'l be fun and a huge learning experience, but cheaper? not even close.

It's up to the builder to decide how much their time is worth, if their are like me and enjoy the experience and learning, it could be nothing! It's also up to the builder to find an old chassis that does what they want, ally framed bikes from around 1990 handle very well, can be cheap, and require little work if you know what you're looking for.

I think as people who have done conversions ourselves, it's more appropriate to inform people of what is required, help out with component choices, budgets etc. But it isn't appropriate to make their decision for them, that's why I took offense to what gasdive has been posting.
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