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Author Topic: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not  (Read 817 times)

raystl

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Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« on: April 29, 2023, 01:36:02 AM »

My 2018 system is in an airplane. It hibernated every winter with no problems.

But not this year. I removed the connector to the DC converter to check the battery voltage. That showed 8 volts!  After 1 hour the voltage had risen to 15 volts. Went back 6 days later and the voltage was 22.4 volts.

To me it appears that there was some parasitic drain through the converter that killed the battery. But I would prefer to be wrong. Is it dead?  :-X
Thanks
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2023, 02:20:04 AM »

i tried resetting the BMS. No lit leds.
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MVetter

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2023, 03:34:49 AM »

Anything below 50 volts is probably not salvageable.
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2023, 04:13:08 AM »

Okay. Thanks Morgan.
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rgutt

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2023, 09:29:27 AM »

If that's an accurate reading, you have an expensive paperweight.
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2023, 06:32:56 PM »

I am afraid you are right. I have an extremely expensive, airplane shaped boat anchor.
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Specter

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2023, 08:55:25 PM »

Ive had lith batteries go down to zero before.  NOT pretty.
You CAN at times bring them back up but they took a major hit and there are no guarantees they will work again, what their capacity / damages may be, so proceed at your own risk.

Some battery chargers have a 'recovery' mode on them, which is basically, while for lead acid batteries, to bring a totally dead battery back up from zero to something the regular charger will start to work with.   slow charge it, it may take an hour or so to creep enough voltage into it to get it to a point where the charger will recognize it, then proceed with a normal SLOW CHARGE.  Take itto 100 percent and let it rest a bit, then try to charge again, making sure it's topped and balanced.

Depending on the battery now, some of them, their BMS may reject any charge and you are sol unless you can somehow open it up and bypass the open the BMS put into the circuit.

good luck

aaron

ps, I seen one manu of lith battery that they put an internal heater into the battery, and it appears it is wired on the front side of the BMS somehow, so in cold weather, while the bms may kick the battery out for YOU, nothing is stopping the internal heater from sucking it to zero to keep it warm.
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2023, 11:00:55 PM »

Hmmm, maybe. Inspired by 
I will try to step trickle charge using the DC converter lines. I will charge outside in a field, with a fire extinguisher nearby, carefully listening for weird noises and bulging battery sides. If I can get the voltage high enough for the BMS to operate, the BMS should prevent catstrophic events. If it works at all, I expect a signifcant hit to capacity.

I do not mind risking destroying the (probably useless) battery. I would prefer to not burn my plane in the process though. In the worst case, the fire extinguisher should be able to prevent flames from spreading.
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MVetter

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2023, 11:21:57 PM »

Skipping around in that video the author notes that he started with each pack registering ~10 volts. While that's low, each of those packs is made up of 4 cells. Brammos actually ran the exact same voltage as Zero in a similar configuration of 28S. The difference is Zero does 4P and Brammo was all 1 series.

My point is that 10 volts for 4 cells is still above the 2vdc bare minimum that should be considered before attempting to revive a dead battery. You're at 8 volts for 112 cells which comes out to 0.07vdc per cell. I strongly urge you NOT to attempt to revive that pack. Or, if you do, make your charging station a large deep pit far away from anything flammable.
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2023, 02:47:30 AM »

Message received and understood. :'(

Thanks for preventing me from being a bad neighbor.

--ray
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Specter

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2023, 02:08:54 AM »

Trickling that dead pack up with a small charger, maybe putting an amp or so into them over many hours to slowly bring the voltage up should be about the safest way to do it.  When i rezzed an 8 kw dead pack I hit it with 1.5 amps for about 6 hours to get them to a voltage the BMS would say ok, I see batteries again.  At that point still, do a very slow charge up to full cap.

At this point check each cell as you can, to see if any balancing needs to be done, if so, do it.  Let it set about 2 or 3 days, then check the cell voltages again, see if any drifted significantly.  This will tell you if you got on that is bleeding internally and likely to cause a catastrophic event.

From here Id do a controlled discharge at a medium rate down to rated cut out voltage of say 20 percent charge left.  From here, check cells see how they fare, any significantly higher or lower ones in the series is telling of bad players, that again, can cause you great grief.

From here charge back up at about a 0.5 C rate.  This is fast enough that it will generate some heat to see if they ARE still good, but without just daring them to super nova on you!   Hit full charge, check cell balance again,  yes check it again, you are cycling them fully because any cells that are significantly degraded capacity wise will quickly take down the pack and force others into a critical point.  Critical Event for LiPo's tend to be extremely thermal. ie a bad day and pissy neighbors when that cloud of acrid smoke wafts into their windows.

if they behaved to this point, the pack should still be good to use.

Also, as a general comment:   When LiPo's Do decide to give up the ghost, often you have very little notice.  By the time it's swelling, it's often too late,  if it's smoking,  IF IT IS SAFE,  get your insulated pliers and cut that sob out of the pack if you can!!  AT least cut the power cables to try to keep it from causing a sympathetic ignition of the other packs (this is assuming it don't rupture and spew flames right at them, in which case you are just #$$ked).    If you see them puff and hiss, often you have very few seconds to react.

and whatEVER happens, and this pisses me off the most because god damned fire departments should KNOW BETTER,  They have been trained supposedly......

DO NOT POUR WATER ON A FKN LITHIUM FIRE, IT DOES NOT PUT IT OUT, IT CATALYZES IT !!!!!.....ok ok fine, the chemists out there are going to scold me,  fine, whatever, it's more of a reagent but the point stands it makes the fire much WORSE !!!


Disclaimer:  I have been playing with electricity and batteries for over 40 years.  I am comfortable doing the things I told you but do know that they can be very DANGEROUS, especially if you are not savvy to the way this stuff behaves, or are shy about electric.  If you don't like the way it sounds, then please don't do it, but if you are confident... here are some possible tips.

Good luck and if you want to reach out in DM's please feel free.  I know that some probably would not want me to continue on THIS path on a public forum.

Aaron
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mdjak1

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2023, 07:03:15 PM »

Quote
a catastrophic event.

It is one thing to have a catastrophic battery event while driving an EV car or even riding an EV motorcycle.   You probably have several seconds to stop and exit/get off the vehicle.   But the OP has a  EV airplane.   Unless he is wearing a parachute a catastrophic battery event while in flight is going to be a extremely bad day.   

Good luck to the OP.   I think I would be shopping for replacement batteries if I were him. 
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Specter

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2023, 08:05:22 PM »

I hear zero is selling parachutes that open on impact... 
aaron
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raystl

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Re: Yet Another Dead battery... but hoefully not
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2023, 01:08:31 AM »

Thanks to all responders.
I have decided to replace.  :'(
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