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[mdjak1]

For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:

locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse

The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).

if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.

I'm confused.   Where do you seen that both the 2.9kW and 3.6kW charging is locked on the 2022 SR/F standard?  The website says the 2022 SR/F standard has 3.0 kW charging as a standard feature.   The cypher store offers 10% more charging for $195 or 100% faster charging for $1495.  Since neither are dealer installed, then I could agree that there is likely a second 3kW on board charger that is not functioning, but not two that aren't functioning.   

Also, buying a SR/F standard and getting the cypher upgrade for 100% faster charging will be cheaper for those buyers won't don't want/need heated grips since the cypher upgrade is $600 less than buying an SR/F premium.   

[Auriga]

2022 SR/Fs and SR/S now come with a single 6kW charger, limited to either 3kw or 6kw, and you can choose to bump the 3kW to 6kW or the 6kW to ~6.5kW

The SR is the only bike with the 3kW chargers of previous models

[shayan]

For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:

locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse

The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).

if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.

Well another way to look at it is you are spending $1,100 more for the same bike, except its now heavier. That extra 3kw charger sets you back $1500 to unlock, so a $2600 premium over the previous year but keep in mind you can buy that charger at retail for $1700 for a 2020-2021 bike. Squeeze the profit margin for the charger on the front end and maybe it will pay off big on the back end. You still payed for it, you're just paying more to use it now.

Those heated grips are a ~$40 cost to them, nav is a built in feature to that off the shelf display they have, and reverse has nothing to do with hardware and is just changing the direction of the motor and modified throttle map in software. But that's a good way to get another $600 from the consumer.

Yes the 3kW charger is $1700 but i'm guessing that the dealer install labor charges will be around $500-700. i paid ~$700 to get the 6kW charger installed for my 2020 SR/F standard. So the overall price  for the 3kW charger will be $2200-2500. If the buyers can do the install themselves then they save on the labor costs, but thats unlikely for most cases.

I forgot to re-iterate that carrying all the unused extra weight hurts the range badly. Even an extra 50lbs is ~10% of the bike's weight. So somewhat 10% difference in range.

For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:

locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse

The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).

if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.

I'm confused.   Where do you seen that both the 2.9kW and 3.6kW charging is locked on the 2022 SR/F standard?  The website says the 2022 SR/F standard has 3.0 kW charging as a standard feature.   The cypher store offers 10% more charging for $195 or 100% faster charging for $1495.  Since neither are dealer installed, then I could agree that there is likely a second 3kW on board charger that is not functioning, but not two that aren't functioning.   

Also, buying a SR/F standard and getting the cypher upgrade for 100% faster charging will be cheaper for those buyers won't don't want/need heated grips since the cypher upgrade is $600 less than buying an SR/F premium.   

So, I mentioned 2.9kWh and that is the locked battery capacity (17.3 - 14.4)
and 3.6kW is the locked charging capability (6.6 - 3)

[Fred]

If you don't think what you're getting for your money is good value then that's fine. Fair enough. But don't get worked up over how that purchase is delivered to you.

If the hardware is installed you have paid for it. Removing extra hardware at point of manufacture would reduce the cost of making the bike.

No.

1. It's not yours if you haven't paid for it.
2. Let's say the hardware costs $100 and it costs $200 per bike to have a branch in the production line where the bikes are manufactured differently - then it's cheaper to fit them to all. It may make the bikes cheaper and be a way for Zero to reduce prices. I don't know Zero's numbers, but for many products it does work out better this way.

Obviously, Zero's prices have gone up. It's fair enough to complain about that. Maybe it's the same supply chain pressures that everyone's facing and the bikes would be even more expensive without this trick. Maybe it's Zero beeing greedy. I have no idea.

[DonTom]

er and be a way for Zero to reduce prices. I don't know Zero's numbers, but for many products it does work out better this way.

Obviously, Zero's prices have gone up. It's fair enough to complain about that. Maybe it's the same supply chain pressures that everyone's facing and the bikes would be even more expensive without this trick. Maybe it's Zero beeing greedy. I have no idea.

I don't think the prices went up as much as the value of our dollars went down. We would see how cheap Zeros really are if we could pay with gasoline instead of cash and then compare to a few years back.


-Don- Cisco Grove, CA (Charging 2017 Zero SR at 8.0 KW)

[T.S. Zarathustra]

If you don't think what you're getting for your money is good value then that's fine. Fair enough. But don't get worked up over how that purchase is delivered to you.

If the hardware is installed you have paid for it. Removing extra hardware at point of manufacture would reduce the cost of making the bike.

No.

1. It's not yours if you haven't paid for it.
2. Let's say the hardware costs $100 and it costs $200 per bike to have a branch in the production line where the bikes are manufactured differently - then it's cheaper to fit them to all. It may make the bikes cheaper and be a way for Zero to reduce prices. I don't know Zero's numbers, but for many products it does work out better this way.

Obviously, Zero's prices have gone up. It's fair enough to complain about that. Maybe it's the same supply chain pressures that everyone's facing and the bikes would be even more expensive without this trick. Maybe it's Zero beeing greedy. I have no idea.

If a part is installed on the bike you buy, you have paid for the part. If you have paid for a part it should function.

[DonTom]

If a part is installed on the bike you buy, you have paid for the part. If you have paid for a part it should function.

But you have not paid for the software to make it function.


I think I see more advantages than disadvantages of this new way. But it's really not that new. Tesla has been doing it for years with their 6K$ autopilot.


Installing software is usually easier than installing the hardware.



-Don- Auburn, CA

[Skidz]

Tesla has been doing it for years with their 6K$ autopilot.

Well yes, and no. The computer is not just for FSD, it's for a lot of other things. You pay for the development of an extra software package. Think of it as your home computer. When you buy it with a decent operating system, or with Windows (Sorry, couldn't resist) you can do basic stuff like browsing and email. But if you want to use the computer for, let's say, flying a simulator you'll have to pay for the software. I think $6k is a bit steep for what you get but they can ask what they want and as long as it works, it works.
In this case it's more than just software; it's disabled hardware. Tesla used that to bring the price of the M3 SR down below an incentive threshold, but when that went south they changed their ways. In this case, they give you a 15.6kWh battery but really it's a 17.1kWh battery and for a price you get the extra 1.5kWh. The charger is a 6kW model but you get 3kW and for a price, you get the full 6kW.

This brings up a nice point for the buyers; If a company advances in technology, and you buy that technology, you'd expect to be able to use that technology. But now the company sells you the new tech, but allows you to use it like it's old tech until you pay extra. Would you buy the bike for a higher price if all the premium features were enabled? And, if these features are enabled, are they enabled for the bike retaining a resale value or only for the owner, losing the features when selling the bike?

IMHO, Zero is doing nothing wrong business wise but it feels wrong. You buy it, you use it. All of it. And if it costs more, it costs more.

[Richard230]

As I have said before, motorcycle enthusiasts are a very conservative bunch - especially compared with Tesla buyers. This type of marketing is just not going to fly with most current motorcycle owners, especially when they are dipping their toes into EV from ICE. Once the word gets out about how Zero is selling their bikes with advertised features that will need to be "unlocked" for a fee, buyers will be staying away from Zero motorcycles in droves and heading toward LiveWires, Energica (if they have the money) or other lower-priced brands in the future. If dealers are going to fully inform their potential customers regarding the various models, prices and upgrades being offered by Zero, it will send their customer's heads spinning. Frankly, I just don't see their sales increasing in the future if Zero continues along this marketing path. 

[DonTom]

As I have said before, motorcycle enthusiasts are a very conservative bunch - especially compared with Tesla buyers. This type of marketing is just not going to fly with most current motorcycle owners, especially when they are dipping their toes into EV from ICE. Once the word gets out about how Zero is selling their bikes with advertised features that will need to be "unlocked" for a fee, buyers will be staying away from Zero motorcycles in droves and heading toward LiveWires, Energica (if they have the money) or other lower-priced brands in the future. If dealers are going to fully inform their potential customers regarding the various models, prices and upgrades being offered by Zero, it will send their customer's heads spinning. Frankly, I just don't see their sales increasing in the future if Zero continues along this marketing path. 

The way I see it, is if they advertise it correctly, there is no real issue. As long as new buyers know what the price includes, there is no issue.


I guess we will have to wait and see how it all works out for Zero.  If I were to buy a Zero, this would not bother me a bit.


-Don-  Auburn, CA