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[yhafting]

Short story first:
***************
2015 SR:
When charging using a "deaf & mute" external charger fixed to 114V, having the bike keyed on, the bike shuts down after 1h, due to inactivity.
After shutting down, it immediately tries to start again since the key is on.
However with my external charger trying to charge up to 114V, the bike senses voltage being present, and does connect contactor, reporting "contactor welded", and shuts down and repeats.

Thus i cannot pursue my goal of charging (without the not so trusty calex) using my external charger without keying the bike on/off every hour.

So my question is thus: What are reccomended cheap fixes for having the bike charge and stay charging for an arbitrary length without human intervention?
I can think of a few ways, but i'd like to have some inputs on what to prioritize, or if there are other options:

My options so far is (both good and bad):
1: Install a timer on my charger socket connection, that shuts down the external charger for 2-3 minutes every hour
(probably the cheapest alternative, although i cringe thinking of it and i would need adapters to function with my 3 phase charger connection).
2: Buy a microcontroller card and program it to talk to the Zero on the CAN bus
(need to find a good way to connect though, probably through the brown anderson connector)
3: Buy a microcontroller card and program it to talk to my charger (2x eltek flatpak 48-2000 HE)
(connection here is also a bit tricky since id probably need a small PCB to connect to the eltek)
4: Both 2 and 3
(This is probably what i should if i need this solution for long term).
5: Resign and just use my cell phone alarm and turn of the charger once every hour.
************



Long story (for those interested in why i am pursuing this method).
For a long while i have had occational interrupts in riding, typically just after starting, while running at walking speed. Last year this seemed to happen more and more often. At the same time my calex charger trips the fuses at home (even when having 16A all by itself). So i decided to take the bike to the dealer to have the bike fixed. Now the current dealer just took over Zero (no alternatives), and my previous contact had to return their debugging tool, so they weren't able to find anything wrong, which was a puzzle.

What i learned though  is that they, as a part of routine, disconnected the bike MBB fuse before attempting to replicate the error. And then - no error occured. In fact i could (surprised as i was) ride the bike home, without any hiccups. In fact hickups did not occur until the next time the charger had tripped the fuse. Now this being at the end of autumn last year, i stored the bike at 63% while pondering on the issue during winter.

To test whether the faults were induced due to errors following the behaviour of the Calex charger, i decided to do some attempts, only using the eltek chargers i bought earlier (as a depot charger), and charge the bike while keyed on (since key off requires communication). (I can still lock away the bike, so it is safe with respect to tampering or theft). 

Now having stowed away the bike for the winter, i would like to have the bike cells balanced, thus leaving the bike on the charger for a while. Doing bulk charging is not that much of an issue as i get up to 4kW from the chargers that were preprogrammed to 114V or so. 

Now when first testing the bike charged for an hour (everything seeming fine), before trouble occured. Dash seemed like flashing and i was a bit concerned that something had gone wildly bad. However re-starting the bike worked, and i could ride (first trip this year ~1h w/o problems), thus i downloaded the logs and charged again. (By the way, big thanks to Brian for providing the tool for parsing the log data!)

The same error did occur again, when charging the next time.
Now after checking the logs, i found out that everything goes fine, until we reach the point where the bike shuts down from being idle

Code: [Select]

Bike Shut Off After Idle For 3600 seconds.Then a series of errors follows (probably causing the screen to flicker also

 

Code: [Select]

Power Off                  Key Switch
Module Opening Contactor
Module Opening Contactor

Power On                   Key Switch
Key On
Module scheme changed from None mode to Stopped mode
Module Opening Contactor
Module Opening Contactor
Module scheme changed from Stopped mode to Running mode
Module CAN Link Up
Module Registered
Module CAN Link Down
Module scheme changed from Running mode to Stopped mode
Module CAN Link Up
Sevcon Turned On
Max allowed voltage difference is 500mV
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Contactor Welded
Sevcon Turned Off
CAN1 ACK error. count=1
Sevcon Turned On
Sevcon CAN Link Down
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Disarmed
Contactor Welded
Sevcon Turned Off
Sevcon Turned On
Sevcon CAN Link Down
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Contactor Welded
Sevcon Turned Off
Sevcon Turned On
Sevcon CAN Link Down
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Contactor Welded
Sevcon Turned Off
Sevcon Turned On
Sevcon CAN Link Down
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Contactor Welded
Sevcon Turned Off
Sevcon Turned On
Sevcon CAN Link Down
Sevcon CAN Link Up
Contactor Welded
Too many Welded Contactor Detections. Shutting down.
Sevcon Turned Off
Module Opening Contactor
Module Opening Contactor
Power Off                  Key Switch
This part repeats more or less until i actually turn the ignition key off and turn off the charger.

At this point, there could of course be more to it, so i am open for other suggestions to the underlying problems (calex charger and bike rebooting while riding), but for me to get any closer i have to see whether the problem can be worked around by not using the calex charger. But while doing so, i would like to not throw the bike completely out of balance by only charging 1h although it may be roughly enough for my daily commute (when charging at up to 4kw). 

[TEV]

If you use something to keep the throttle open (twisted), then the bike won't time out anymore. But leaving the headlight on for such a long time with the motorcycle not moving,  isn't a good ideea. There are a few ways to put the motorcycle in charging mode with the key off (after the charging is initiated),  but you need to know what you are doing, so you won't damage the motorcycle. 

[MVetter]

There are a few ways to put the motorcycle in charging mode with the key off (after the charging is initiated),  but you need to know what you are doing, so you won't damage the motorcycle.

Right, we call this an enable signal and this is the right direction to pursue. I do not recommend attempting to engage in Zero's CAN bus, but I'm going to point you in the right direction:

The Delta Q external charger that Zero sells does not use the CAN bus but still sends an enable signal to the bike through the single plug it connects to that doubles as the charge port. I would investigate how it does that. The other really great part about the enable signal is that because it puts the bike into charge mode, it engages the BMS and allows for cell balancing. Therefore you wouldn't need to cap at 114V anymore if you've got a charge enable active.

[yhafting]

There are a few ways to put the motorcycle in charging mode with the key off (after the charging is initiated),  but you need to know what you are doing, so you won't damage the motorcycle.

Right, we call this an enable signal and this is the right direction to pursue. I do not recommend attempting to engage in Zero's CAN bus, but I'm going to point you in the right direction:

The Delta Q external charger that Zero sells does not use the CAN bus but still sends an enable signal to the bike through the single plug it connects to that doubles as the charge port. I would investigate how it does that. The other really great part about the enable signal is that because it puts the bike into charge mode, it engages the BMS and allows for cell balancing. Therefore you wouldn't need to cap at 114V anymore if you've got a charge enable active.

Thanks for providing insight on this. I will have a look if there is something i can find on the enable signal. Perhaps it is something closer to how a charging station engages? ( if so, perhaps i even have the components needed (diodes/ resistor)).

[togo]

https://zeromanual.com/wiki/SDS_Platform/Schematic

[KrazyEd]

I am not sure of what you are using for an external charger.
I have a 2013 FX, 2014 Highly modified S and 2016 SR.
Never had issues with the onboard charger with 2013 or 2014, but
the 2016 had the on board charger replaced several times under
warranty. If using 120 volts, I try to only use external Zero QuiQ
Charger. I do my best to unplug at 75%~80% SOC, but if I don't
make it, all 3 charge to 100%. I usually turn the key off after the
bike starts charging. I am sure that this is something that you
do or have done, but did not notice in your post

[yhafting]

There are a few ways to put the motorcycle in charging mode with the key off (after the charging is initiated),  but you need to know what you are doing, so you won't damage the motorcycle.

Right, we call this an enable signal and this is the right direction to pursue. I do not recommend attempting to engage in Zero's CAN bus, but I'm going to point you in the right direction:

The Delta Q external charger that Zero sells does not use the CAN bus but still sends an enable signal to the bike through the single plug it connects to that doubles as the charge port. I would investigate how it does that. The other really great part about the enable signal is that because it puts the bike into charge mode, it engages the BMS and allows for cell balancing. Therefore you wouldn't need to cap at 114V anymore if you've got a charge enable active.

After a long delay (i have been moving with my family to our first house rather than an apartment), i finally pulled myself together to pursue this, so now i have a functional home depot charger, working with my car charger (Mennekes port and all that stuff).

The schematic pdf ( togos post) suggests connecting a 100kohm resistor to both white/black or white/brown wires in the bike, but the schematic is built on a 2014 model and not a '15 as i have, so i figured i had to check this thoroughly. I ordered the pins (and sockets- just in case), a few 100kOhm resistors and started to read on what i could find on the topic. Now it seems there aren't that many having made chargers that actually charge without the onboard charger, and while the correct way of doing it would be applying 3V or 5V to one or both the control signal pins at the correct time, to have the contactor close, it can be done using a 100kOhm resistor to 100V, as long as the bike is on, and the contactor is closed before the charger starts charging. Although potentially presenting 100V, a 100kohm resistor limits current to 1mW, and saved me from buying additional electronics (arduino or such) which i didnt need.  So i ended up connecting just one pin on the SBS75X connector to a 100kohm resistor connected to the 100V tapped from the connector.

The power dissipation is not much of a concern as long as that 0.1W is not originating from a tiny area.  There should also be no way to get in touch with 100V- which calls for a bit more caution when deciding where to tap into the 100V. I certainly did not want to hack into the bike if it was avoidable, thus i wanted to make my connections at the charger cable side.

In case someone want to go through the same, these are the posts i found most fruitful to look into.
https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3993.msg24631#msg24631
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8225.0
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3993.msg24631#msg24631
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4690.msg31304#msg31304
https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4603.msg30589#msg30589

Since there are few spots that shows visually exactly which pin is connected to the 100kOhm resistor, i have drawn it on a part of the SBS75X specification (attached).
It is only necessary to use this one pin (medium length will work- no need for a long one).

So my procedure is
1: connect my charger (using brown anderson under seat connector)
2: turn bike on, wait until contactor closed
3: turn on charger (by means of sending the correct signal to the wall charger unit which then applies voltage to the chargers)
4: once confirmed charging, turn off bike.

Then the bike will charge without using the internal charger or burning the headlight lamp.

Btw as a reply to KrazyEd, i have never owned a DeltaQ charger, and they are ridiculously expensive here. I bought a couple of eltek 2kW chargers a few years back, that can provide safe charging (currently programmed to 114V when used in series).  I have made all the stuff needed to connect them to public charging stations, but knowing they are not made for motorcycles (not potted etc) i decided to only use them as a depot charger at home. 

I looked into buying a charge tank which would be the optimum solution for my SR, but the cost of 40kNok from the dealer (component only) was a dealbraker. I probably could have it shipped and brought here for around 30kNok which is slightly over 3k$, but my own solution was virtually free this time, as i already had the chargers. A deltaQ charger at 1kW charging speed would cost around 10kNok here, so that to would not make sense compared to components for 300nok. This way i can use my bike a bit longer, while saving my hard earned cash for a bike that actually can charge at a reasonable pace.
 

[togo]

yhafting> Right, we call this an enable signal and this is the right direction to pursue. I do not recommend attempting to engage in Zero's CAN bus, but I'm going to point you in the right direction...

Thank you Y, very informative post.  I'm sure it will help many others.

I have a couple diginow units but the onboard charger for my 16SR has failed, so I now charge throttle-on, and your post will help me shift to a more convenient charge method.