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[heroto]

Regarding: conflicting posts on other threads about level two home/garage charging options.
Here's the scenario:
Imagine a current SR with charge tank, or the upcoming SR/F premium without the extra charger options.
And imagine the new owner has a 30, 40, or 50 amp 220v outlet handy in the garage or shed.
Does the new owner need a fancy charger between the outlet and the Zero such as offered by clipper creek, or can he/she just run a much cheaper cable with plug on one end and J1772 on the other?
And if this imaginary rider is touring, and wants to charge on a 50 amp outlet at an RV park, what is the answer then?
Posts on this website offer different and sometimes incompatible opinions, but perhaps did not lay out this exact scenario.
Thanks

[NEW2elec]

Ben Rich did it using RV 14-50 outlets on most if not all his cross country rides.  He had Elcons and the Diginows not the charge tank since he had a power tank but his YT videos show him using them.

[Curt]

I have been researching this and here's what I've found (experts please correct where I'm wrong):

For Level 2, the vehicle receives 110VAC-250VAC through the J1772, and the charger circuitry (DC/DC conversion) always resides in the vehicle. It's pretty easy to mimic a vehicle to convince an L2 charging station to start sending A/C, by hacking a small circuit with a few passive components. So it's not hard to make a dumb vehicle charger work with a public L2 station.

Mimicking a charging station (RV park case) is more complicated. The station needs to supply particular resistances and a 12V 1kHz PWM square wave, to negotiate charge rate and charging ready state.

How far you have to go depends on how finicky the vehicle is. If the charger circuitry is simplistic (which I suspect is true for Elcon and DigiNow), it might need A/C applied and little else. But in the case of newer vehicles with J1772 plugs (SR/F or EV cars), they could be very particular with current settings and fault protection, so you'd have a hard time getting it to accept a charge.

An L2 station costs more than it seems it should because it contains: long, high-current cable; J1772 and A/C plugs; rugged waterproof case with cable management; protocol handshake circuitry including possibly a microcontroller to detect current/voltage and display several status lights; big MOSFET current switches or relays; over-current protection, GFCI-like leakage protection and ground fault detection; UL listing; other bells and whistles like a security lock.

Plus, it looks good and nobody dies.

[MrBlc]

I have been researching this and here's what I've found (experts please correct where I'm wrong):

For Level 2, the vehicle receives 110VAC-250VAC through the J1772, and the charger circuitry (DC/DC conversion) always resides in the vehicle. It's pretty easy to mimic a vehicle to convince an L2 charging station to start sending A/C, by hacking a small circuit with a few passive components. So it's not hard to make a dumb vehicle charger work with a public L2 station.

Not quite right.. The protocol of negotiation in the J1772 is the same as you describe further with the 12V PWM signal.

An L2 station costs more than it seems it should because it contains: long, high-current cable; J1772 and A/C plugs; rugged waterproof case with cable management; protocol handshake circuitry including possibly a microcontroller to detect current/voltage and display several status lights; big MOSFET current switches or relays; over-current protection, GFCI-like leakage protection and ground fault detection; UL listing; other bells and whistles like a security lock.

Plus, it looks good and nobody dies.

In addition, a quality version of this setup also contains a DC noise filter to avvoid having harmonics thrown back out the circuit towards (and through) your charger to protect from high frequency situations causing fires..

[gstrub]

I’m still a bit confused. What cord comes with the SR/F? I understand one end plugs into the bike which is what the standard level 2 chargers have, but what’s on the other end? Just a standard 110V outlet plug?

[NEW2elec]

Gstub, yes that's what it seems to be.  There isn't a C14 inlet on the SRF like the old bikes so the 110V to J1772 cable is needed to charge off a home outlet.

The stand alone charging stations (in the U.S.) copy the gas pump model so you just use their J1772 "gun" and cable.

[gstrub]

So if I want anything faster in my home, I need an EVSE? Sorry there has been discussion about using other high voltage outlets, but I don’t see a way to just connect the included wire to one of these outlets directly.

[togo]

So if I want anything faster in my home, I need an EVSE? Sorry there has been discussion about using other high voltage outlets, but I don’t see a way to just connect the included wire to one of these outlets directly.

Nope, EVSE is never required for Zero onboard, for Elcon, or for Diginow.  Neither is J1772.

The J1772 / EVSE combination has the benefit of being designed to disconnect the high voltage power and preventing curious little fingers from making contact with hot leads and GFCI.

[gstrub]

Thanks for the replies...maybe I am revealing ignorance or not asking this question correctly.

My understanding (possibly not correct) is that the SR/F comes with a power cord that goes from the bike (J1772) to a standard type of 3 prong wall outlet (110V). As far as I know, this cord does not have any other style connectors on the wall end that would plug into something like a 10-30.

But people are discussing higher voltage outlets like 10-30 which are different than the male end of that adapter. It looks like several EVSE you can buy will plug into those, and you can then use their included J1772 cable to charge the bike faster.

So is there a way to use the included SR/F wire with one of these higher voltage outlets?

[NEW2elec]

Gstrub your on the right track.  To be clear the one you'll get from Zero is the j1772 to the 110V plug only.
The 110V plug would be a bottle neck for higher amp outlets.
That being said there are options for other outlet plugs to a J1772 "gun" you'll just have to buy them yourself from other companies.  Diginow could make one that you want I'm sure and others as well.

[Doug S]

So...I think I'm one of the guilty parties who's added to your confusion, and I apologize for that. Let's try to simplify.

For L2 charging, which is basically "higher-current AC" charging, one or two things are required.

First, you simply need to be able to physically plug in the bike. You need a cable with the right connectors on both ends, or you need something like a charge box with a cable and the right connector for the bike. My point all along has been that oftentimes, a simple cable is ALL YOU NEED. It's worked for me for a couple of years now, as well as Ben Rich and several other members of this forum. I use a simple cable with a 14-50 plug on one end to plug into the wall outlet, and a J1772 plug on the other end to plug into the bike. I believe (there are pictures on this forum) that the SR/F uses a Mennekes Type 2 connector rather than J1772, but that will have to be verified on the production machine.

But you may also have "signaling" to contend with. If you're using a charge box, it will almost certainly require a "handshake" from the vehicle before it will turn on the AC power. The vehicle may also require the return handshake from the charge box before it starts charging, though this requirement seems pretty rare so far, at least on vehicles with J1772 ports. Generally, if you supply 220VAC to the J1772 port, the vehicle will charge. I know the Diginow V2.0 on my bike doesn't need any handshaking. It's nice if the vehicle doesn't require handshaking, because you can charge from any live outlet, for instance at RV parks. All you need is a cable with the right connectors on the ends.

As I said, though, it looks like the SR/F comes with a Mennekes Type 2 inlet, and I don't think anybody knows yet how much "intelligence" Zero has put into it. I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that "Mennekes Type 2" is just a connector spec, it doesn't describe any handshaking protocol, so it's not clear that you can just supply 220VAC to the bike and get it to charge. If the Zero DOES require handshaking, it's probably best to just find the right charge box and get it installed, if you want to fast charge at home. I'm sorry, but to my knowledge we just don't know the answer to those questions for the SR/F yet. If the SR/F does NOT require handshaking, we're back to the simple cable again, and being able to charge from any live 220VAC outlet.

I'm not clear how the other thread got dragged into a fight about wire gauges, etc., and I apologize again for any part I played in that. You should contact a qualified electrician to determine what needs to be done, after you decide whether a simple outlet is sufficient or if you need an actual "charge box".

[togo]

> ... As I said, though, it looks like the SR/F comes with a Mennekes Type 2 inlet, and I don't think anybody knows yet how much "intelligence" Zero has put into it. I believe (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that "Mennekes Type 2" is just a connector spec, it doesn't describe any handshaking protocol, so it's not clear that you can just supply 220VAC to the bike and get it to charge. ...

I think Mennekes Type 2 for Level 2 charging has signalling protocol similar to J1772. 

I had missed that the Zero inlet is Mennekes.  If this is true in north america as well, it might let us dub-J or high-power-J charge with just different cables.

Thanks Doug.

[heroto]

Read somewhere else SR/F will use the J1772. Not saying that's true, just observing that Zero is not providing clear and accurate info to their dealers or the general public.
Why they behave so cryptically confuses me. Surely these guys are smart, and know that most consumers not sipping Kool Aid have pretty good BS detectors.