Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[NEW2elec]

Well I admit my volts=speed amps=range was from dad who would have worked with older DC systems.
Still I think the higher amps making higher heat keeps Zeros from doing any longer races.  No liquid cooling hurts too of course.

I'd like to see the Taycan vs a P100D on a race track, no drag race, maybe 100 mile race around a track.  I've got a winner in mind.  On the south side of Atlanta we still go fast, sometimes very fast and for longer than 1/4 mile.   

Yes off topic because the topic kind of faded.  The OP knows what we want bullet proof reliability, long range, quick charging, low cost, fast if you want it, comfort for the long haul, styling appeal for the masses. 
Little things like reverse, parking brake, built in sat nav on a large color dash unit, cruise control, throttle control, at home software updates or better yet get it right the first time and leave it alone.

Lets see the bike. 

[Alan Stewart]

BUY ALTA !

[yhafting]

I haven't read the whole thread, but i'll toss inn some comments/ ideas:

Hello all!
We are an electric motorcycle startup midway into the build of our first Sport-bike style prototype.
We're currently operating in "Stealth" mode but plan to unveil our production model and final stats at the end of the year, with production beginning in 2019.

FYI In an effort to make our production model appeal to the widest possible range of riders as well as to maintain a genuine discussion without turning this onto a "self promotion" post we'd like to stay anonymous which, we know, makes a broad topic broader...

We're looking for feature requests, EV wishlists and concerns you may have. Most importantly though, we'd like your help to identify and fix any common objections you may know about towards electric motorcycles. This being the only forum we've found dedicated to electric motorcycles, we thought it was fitting to begin our search here.

A bit about us and our methodology:
- Were a group of engineers with backgrounds in Aerospace, Marine, Automotive, data analytics and manufacturing engineering located in southern California.
- We believe wholeheartedly in vertical integration. We have and plan on continuing to design, manufacture and assemble nearly every component in house. While it drives the need for more infrastructure and generates much more work, it also guarantees design freedom, the lowest possible costs and ensures we can maintain a level of quality not feasible or affordable from overseas sources.

- As we understand it there are 3 main issues with converting riders to electric (in our assumed order of importance):
    1. Cost - Current electric motorcycles start at around $11K for the most basic example and can approach $40K+. For that money you could have the best gas bike around and still have enough money left over for track days, an enclosed trailer and a second daily commuter. Costs must be comparable to the gas equivalents,. Most importantly however, the bikes quality, performance and aesthetics must be comparable. @~$11k there's a huge market (Yamaha R6, CBR600, moster 797 etc) however the "equivalent" electric bikes either don't exist or start at twice the price.
    2. Range - As with all electric vehicles, range anxiety is almost always the #1 performance concern. With new battery tech and higher efficiency motors/ power electronics new EV's are very close to being able to match what a person could reasonably expect to drive in a day. We believe our bike (as well as other EVs) have just about achieved that, and now its a matter of educating buyers and ensuring charge infrastructure is available to use. 99% of motorcycle trips between stops are <50 miles. Our goal is to make this more than possible with even our lowest capacity model and no change to riding style.
    3. Emotion - People love the noise of a sport bike's engine. Us included. While it can get tiresome in traffic or city driving, there isn't much that compares to it at races or on the track. While we cant match the noise, we do think we can replace that emotion with something different. A powerful, clean looking and silent sport bike with loads of instant torque is a very different feeling. You're no longer saturated with engine noise, you're now focused on the sound of where you are and whats around you. On the road this is a safety benefit, but when you're out for a cruise this creates a completely new and thoroughly enjoyable experience.

While these are fine words, this is what everyone is saying.. So if you want to tease the crowd already own an electric bike, you got to separate from the crowd, not just doing the same.

The Bike:
- Our prototype/ planned first production model is a small-midsized sport bike with a slightly more relaxed riding position to make daily commute comfortable (think Yamaha R3 riding style)
- Its a full fairing, slim bodied bike weighing around 420 lbs for the 16kWh version (ready to ride)
- In-house designed and built, liquid cooled li-ion battery pack designed for 50% load continuous duty in hot weather. 3 pack sizes; ~8kWh, ~16kWh and ~24KWh will be sold with expected city/highway ranges of 90, 180 and 270 miles respectively.
- Included and built-in level 1 AND 2 charging capability with a max charge rate of at least 40A @240V (~2 miles per minute of charge)
- In house designed 100kW peak power motor and inverter that can handle 60kW continually.
- Direct drive belt and near zero overall maintenance. The coolant system is fully sealed, no oil to change, no filters to clean. Just tire pressure, brake fluid and belt tension checks.
- Hope to have the 8 kWh model sell for ~$11k and the largest pack would be less than $18k. Significantly, this is an actual, delivered to your home price. Charger, 100kw and options included. Also, this cost does not include any tax rebates you may have.
We do acknowledge this is still a chunk of change and will constantly be trying to lower sales price. Not just cost to build. We want the "can afford it" and "want to buy it" venn diagram to basically be a single circle. Unfortunately, much of the possible price decrease can only come with increased sales numbers, which will take some time to achieve.


Obviously anyone can list off some specs and call it a day, but we sincerely believe in our ability to achieve this. Due to owning the design, manufacture and assembly of almost every component we are uniquely positioned to make this be whatever we'd like it to be. It just comes down to choosing our targets.

So that's our take on things, what would you guys like to see and what thoughts do you have about our plans? Ideas big and small are welcome!

 Whether range is an issue or not depends on your style of riding and the battery you get. If you do highways on a sub 15kwh battery, then range is likely an issue, along with with engine and battery heating.

The frame that can hold a 24 kwh battery pack is likely going to be to heavy for making sense with an 8 kwh battery pack . Are you going to compete with Zero on price? If not, i'd just ditch the smallest version. 16kwh usable energy is good for quite some riding, however 240V 40A is not something for the future. Energica already has 20kw CCS charging, so you are starting at a disadvantage, even with 16 kwh battery (the 8 kwh battery will only be for around town commutes, so that bike has to be aggresively priced).  If you want to create a bike that will be desired, you need to have faster charging. There are cars charging near 3C today- if you can provide that, the bike may be attractive for more than commuting. With help from third party vendors (diginow,..) Zero already has 1C charging and battery capacities up to 18 kwh.  For charging at home, several options should be available, so you can dial in as much as possible or just enough that you wont trigger the circuit breaker. Ideally home charging should be up to 400V 3phase 32A- but you will get a long way with 240V 16A at home, as long as you have true fast charging (>2c).

Belt drive is something i like with the Zeros. But an unprotected belt will get torn when there is gravel. Although it may not look sexy, do provide a solution to protect the belt. It will give the bike a better reputation, and save frustration. If possible, allow for third party vendors for buying a belt- when i bought a new belt for my zero (in Norway),  the belt which was priced between 60 and 90$ in US, cost around $400 to get to Norway. If i could have bought it from the manufacturer, it would have cost me less than 1/3. These are things that i will take into account when looking for a bike the next time. Any spare parts should be able to order directly, not just through "your local dealership" which hardly ever will provide good support for a new brand.

For the sake of safety, do provide some sort of traction control/ wheel spin detection. Not every one will want this, so it should be an option. At least make an option to restrict acceleration higher than the theoretical limit without spinning up the wheel. This can be calculated dynamically for any given torque requested by the user (thus by feathering the throttle you should never see the bike spin up and out of control, as you limit the acceleration accordingly).

Make all drive modes customizable. Let the driver choose the amount of regen while driving, and make the regen scheme tunable, not just some on/off solution. For my own part, i might like to go heavier on regen in some areas, and then coast in others. This should be doable without stopping the bike, or changing through modes governing everything. For my part the zero "eco" mode (which is a silly name- don't use "eco" it just doesn't make sense) has prohibitively high regen when letting off the throttle- thus the mode is useless. When i drive in rain i don't need jerky regen, and coasting is much better for saving energy. If regen can be applied gently it makes sense- on/off is not a good deal. Do have more than one custom mode, and let me choose whether or not i will use predefined modes. (If they are going to stick they better make good sense!).

- Good luck with your project!

[droidish]

...The Bike:... - Direct drive belt and near zero overall maintenance...

A real positive. Especially if (1) you design the swing arm pivot so it's on the same axis as the motor's drive pulley, and (2) incorporate real belt protection. Zero got that first concept right, but completely lapsed on the second.