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[MostlyBonkers]

I was forced into a firmware upgrade as a troubleshooting step for my battery issues. I can understand the rationale and it did fix the issue with extracting the battery logs via the Zero app.  However, the behaviour of the latest firmware is just bonkers! I can't believe that there was any kind of quality control around that release.  On my way home tonight I was presented with 0% SoC and 21 miles estimated range. I rode many miles at 0% SoC. I may start a new topic entitled Lies, Damn Lies and User Interfaces!  There's a big divide between the information going to the rider and what the hardware feels the battery is capable of.

I'm losing faith Zero, please take note! Oh and stop your soft Californian developers from smoking weed on the job...

[Shadow]

My daughter is riding my old 2014 S with PT. The last time its firmware was updated was when it was delivered in January 2014. The motor has never been "commissioned". It still runs great and the SOC display seems to work accurately.  It just takes about a week to get past 92% to 100% on the original charger. 

Motor commissioning became a critical maintenance item with the introduction of IPM motors (2016+). The service schedule is at the first 600 miles, then every 8000 miles thereafter. Most Zero Motorcycle owners I've met with 2016+ model year bikes have not yet topped 12,000 miles. My 2016 DSR is about 36,000 miles and I guess about three service intervals into the new motor because the old motor blew up and tried to kill me.

I was forced into a firmware upgrade as a troubleshooting step for my battery issues. I can understand the rationale and it did fix the issue with extracting the battery logs via the Zero app.  However, the behaviour of the latest firmware is just bonkers! I can't believe that there was any kind of quality control around that release.  On my way home tonight I was presented with 0% SoC and 21 miles estimated range. I rode many miles at 0% SoC. I may start a new topic entitled Lies, Damn Lies and User Interfaces!  There's a big divide between the information going to the rider and what the hardware feels the battery is capable of. ...

If someone knows the true nature of why this is happening they are not talking about it. I'd bet there's an off-by-one error introduced in the code from changing programming language and/or an unexpected change in the compiled output from the development toolchain. Possibly there could be some way to encourage Zero Motorcycles by either lawsuit and/or keep your bike in the shop until this issue gets fixed, until it has been in the shop for so long (because I assume this will not get fixed) that you can invoke a lemon law and get an offer for a buy-back or replacement bike. Wash, rinse, repeat. Otherwise there's no incentive for a firmware fix and literally not anything we can do to help with a resolution. The programming code being secret leads to these kinds of problems that only money (and not intelligence) can resolve.

[MostlyBonkers]

Ahh, I didn't know the motor calibration was to do with the IPM motors. Thanks Shadow.

I'd love to understand why it becomes a critical item for servicing.  The whole point is to get away from servicing and the crazy prices that stealerships charge for workshop time.  It's far too similar to the requirement to check valve clearances in an ICE bike for my liking. They never go out, but it's a major inconvenience and expense to get them checked. In fact, the process of checking them is more likely to throw them out than anything else!  Also, why does it need doing on bikes when the valves on cars don't need touching at all?

All off topic and I'm sure I could Google it all.

I'm mostly concerned about the battery health with my bike, rather than the poor state of the firmware at the moment. Aside from the overheating, I had strong evidence that the range had dropped significantly before the firmware update. The bike is now unusable as I have lost all faith that it won't leave me stranded.  There's something seriously wrong with the battery pack and it needs investigating thoroughly.

Unfortunately the tech in the Netherlands is on holiday this week so I may not get a response from Zero until well into next week.  I just hope that this is an isolated issue with my bike, rather than an issue with all 2014 battery packs.

[DonTom]

Ahh, I didn't know the motor calibration was to do with the IPM motors. Thanks Shadow.

I'd love to understand why it becomes a critical item for servicing.  The whole point is to get away from servicing and the crazy prices that stealerships charge for workshop time.  It's far too similar to the requirement to check valve clearances in an ICE bike for my liking. They never go out, but it's a major inconvenience and expense to get them checked. In fact, the process of checking them is more likely to throw them out than anything else!  Also, why does it need doing on bikes when the valves on cars don't need touching at all?

I hope nobody here cares much if I answer your off topic questions on ICEs.

There are many motorcycles that have self adjusting hydraulic lifters and need no valve adjustment. My Harley is such. Same with Honda Goldwings since 1985 (IIRC).  Often cycle riders are looking for the best performance more so  than less maintenance. If there were a high demand for less maintenance at the cost of performance, it would be a lot more common, IMO, on our ICE motorcycles.

I don't know where you get the misinformation about checking valves throws them out of adjustment. Unless you mean when tightening the cylinder head bolts it  takes  the valves clearances out of adjustment, as happens on my 1971 BMW, but that is part of the process that should be done before checking valve clearances anyway. It really means the cylinder head bolts needed tightening, and when they are tightened the valve clearances  must be checked as that will change.

But most of today's ICE cycle engines use shims and buckets and checking the clearances on such  is not going to change anything. And they usually don't change much on most bikes. I know of several people who have not checked the valve clearances from new to 75,000 miles and all were still in spec. (with Yamaha Ventures).  But I had to do mine twice in around 80K miles. But were still very close to spec. I changed two shims, one size difference,  in all those miles. So YMMV.

It's a mistake to think EVs require no maintenance, but they require a lot less than any ICE bike, AFAIK, and some ICE bikes today require little, such as my Triumph Trophy SE  that goes 20,000 miles before anything really needs to be done, after the first oil change.

-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

[MostlyBonkers]

Thanks Don, much appreciated.

[GBEV]

This thread may be the one to ask if anyone has compiled a user degradation log of pouch cells in general, and Ferasis pouch cells as used in Zero bikes in particular, like the Tesla/Panasonic 18650B cell graph which curves upwards along the time axis and not downwards like Nissan Leaf pouch cells?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

This thread may be the one to ask if anyone has compiled a user degradation log of pouch cells in general, and Ferasis pouch cells as used in Zero bikes in particular, like the Tesla/Panasonic 18650B cell graph which curves upwards along the time axis and not downwards like Nissan Leaf pouch cells?

No, this is not a good thread for that. Please make a new topic.

[Shadow]

...I'm mostly concerned about the battery health with my bike, rather than the poor state of the firmware at the moment. Aside from the overheating, I had strong evidence that the range had dropped significantly before the firmware update. The bike is now unusable as I have lost all faith that it won't leave me stranded.  There's something seriously wrong with the battery pack and it needs investigating thoroughly...

What I've witnessed is BMS per-cell data is available from the serial console output; a bit outside my expertise though. There's a few vendors selling cables to get into that function of the Zero diagnostic connector. It's not difficult or expensive but because of the seriousness what happens when someone might jackass and enter bad data, there's not been a fully spelled out tutorial yet (except Unofficial Zero Manual and some partial descriptions in various bike forums).

For this access you would firstly need to buy or build the physical cable and a computer with some (free) software to send and receive text with the bike computer. If you have that going then the easier task is getting a hint from people who are experienced navigating the bike computer menu. There are some non-public channels where that topic is explained better.

If your ZF pack is failed and Zero Motorcycles offers to replace it, consider to accept the offer and all should be good again. It's not uncommon that I've heard about a few 2014 bikes some ZF packs are better than others, and Zero Motorcycles was very reasonable with a trade-in or repair-replacement.