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[Andrew Zero S]

One Friday last September my motor seized just as I arrived at work (see posting: Tech Help / Motor Mechanic needed« on: September 19, 2020, 12:25:25 PM » ). Once it was freewheeling again it would judder backwards on twisting the throttle.
NEW2elec very astutely diagnosed a broken encoder and patiently explained what one was (see thread to above posting).

The AA took the bike to a Honda and Zero dealer local to my workplace. They started some diagnostic work and some disassembly with the help of instructional video tutorials from Zero. Once the most trivial flaws had been ruled out they forbade the mechanic to do any more work on the bike. They offered me a new engine at £1,600 once I had returned the old engine to California.
The bike shop told me that they were unable to help me without permission from Zero. There was mention of a 25% discount, and the engine was advertised at about that price (£1,257) on AF1 Racing from whom I’d got parts before. Sadly they felt they had to refuse to supply it : « Not sure how that item became active on the new store, but we are unable to sell the motors without a work order for repair in our own shop.  Zero does not sell the major components to user installs.»

I had to venture deep into Brexit country, with the bike in the back of a Zipcar,  to find another electric motorcycle mechanic who was prepared to work on my bike in secret, in defiance of Zero. Besides correcting a minor error in the reassembly they were not able to help, unable to identify or source the encoder.

 We have a nascent industry in the UK of installing electric motors into classic cars so I looked to one of these firms for help. The engineers at GoinGreen, near Heathrow, a more cosmopolitan part of Britain, not only have a lot of experience designing original builds for classic cars but have been selling and maintaining EVs for 18 years. They keep many cars and vans on the road where original parts are unavailable, sometimes because the startup has gone bust.

Without any help from Zero in supplying or identifying the encoder and because the part is so inexpensive, they simply ordered a range of six encoders, and one was in fact the correct part. On comparing the encoder to the broken part it transpired that the serial number had been scratched off.

After a lot more work, without any help from Zero, they eventually got the back wheel turning smoothly, at high speed, in the right direction and stopping and starting on the throttle. The bike seems to be working perfectly now but I’ve booked it in with a Zero dealer for a firmware update and to check the belt tension and suspension as the GoinGreen engineer hadn’t worked on a bike or ridden one for 20 years.

Costs

1) My way.
GoinGreen :                £720 – after a substantial discount
Up country Electric Bike Mechanic :   £126
Zipcars :                       £197
Proposed Service :            £70 – at a guess
TOTAL                       £1,131

2) Zero’s Proposal
£1,600 less 25%, plus shipping both ways, plus fitting, ?plus VAT.

I am very angry that Zero has prevented me from achieving a timely and economic repair in order to protect their trade secrets. I believe they are acting in direct contravention of the EU right to repair regulations. I know that we have had Brexit and may have lost this protection, but France and Germany are much bigger markets. No purchaser would consider paying the premium for a Zero without factoring in ecological concerns. Is it ecologically sound to bin a perfectly good engine for the sake of an encoder?
What were their plans to recycle the neodymium from their famously brushless, permanent magnet, motor?

My Zero S is a fantastic bike, beautifully engineered and well built. Making it very fast and very agile. Nothing is faster in heavy London traffic.

My fondest hope is that we are dealing with genius engineers corrupted by crap lawyers and shit accountants. Can we as a community perhaps encourage Zero management to consider that there might be sales and financial penalties in treating their aftermarket clients so badly?

Andrew de Stempel

[Crissa]

It sounds like your initial dealer tried to scam you.  Zero only takes motors back to see warranty type repairs, and would only stop them from working if they screwed it up.

-Crissa

[Anx2k]

Care to post the exact model number of the encoder?  It could be that it could help someone in the future who encounters a similar issue.

[Crissa]

Also, I have never had to pay for a part shipped to/from Zero.  (Admittedly, that's never been more than across the valley a few times but the point stands.)

If you took it in, and the commissioning failed soon after, that sounds like the service tech effed up and it should be their bill.  I don't see why you'd blame Zero for the dealer trying to wriggle out of the damage.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

Hello Andrew, first thanks for the kind words for helping you.  I'm glad the videos shed some light on why I thought the encoder was the problem.

But to be honest and for the record I didn't think changing the encoder was a job for anyone without full knowledge of electric motors and how they work.  Opening the motor, replacing the encoder, resealing it, being able to test the results with high degree of confidence is a task I don't think most people can do.  I could not.

If you feel comfortable with the guy who worked on yours and you feel it fixed the problem then I'm glad it worked out for you.

I don't know if your dealer caused a problem at one of your services or not, or the encoder could have just failed on it's own.  It would be hard to prove either way.

I'm torn between wishing Zero could improve it's tech help with dealers as this has been an issue in the past but not 100% across the board for all owners. And then the fact that a bad repair made by someone who didn't really know what all is envolved could be deadly.  So giving a novice parts for what could be a very dangerous job could be as irresponsible as a bar tender letting a very drunk man drive home.

Try to understand Zero is a fairly small company on the US west coast which puts a small time zone window open with EU.  They should be able to do better but there are limits.  They just aren't Honda or BMW.

Good luck.

[Andrew Zero S]

I have no idea how the encoder broke. I have no reason to suspect any dealer or mechanic was responsible. The dealer has been as helpful as they could but restrained by Zero.

This was a straightforward part failure in service, out of warranty. Not unreasonable in its itself, my bike has a very hard life.

My annoyance is that it should have been much easier and cheaper to repair had Zero not been willfully obstructive. First Zero exploited their commercial relationship with the franchisee to prevent them working for me on the bike. Second they withold the supply of parts and information necessary to effect a reasonable repair. This is not intelectual property subject to legal protection such as a patent, copyright or a trademark.

With regard to returning the motor to California, this was the only official option offerred to me through the dealer. I did hear of an offer to sell a new engine if proof was supplied that the old engine was put beyond use or repair, perhaps a photo with a club hammer through it.

I'm afraid I didn't do the work myself, I wouldn't know where to look for the part number.

[Crissa]

Your description does not lend it to being Zero's fault, and this is a component (one of the few) that doesn't 'just fail'.

-Crissa

[Fran K]

Thanks for posting your story.  Zero is not the only company that will only sell major piece and not the problematic component inside it.  It does kind of give some context to the comparison photo of the Zero moving parts vs those of an ice motorcycle engine.  Lots of parts discussed on here needing service that do not move.

[Eicas]

This is an interesting discussion!

I can see the manufacturers view on not selling owners certain components or parts that need specialized training and equipment to install.  Liability laws being what they are the manufacturer may just decide to play it safe from lawsuits if the owner or untrained individual screws up the repair.

I can also see the manufacturer not wanting to distribute required proprietary software that then could be copied and distributed to competitors.

I am not on the manufacturer's side on all of this, but they do have some valid arguments for not selling certain parts and discouraging some DIY repair and maintenance items.

As we go more and more high-tech I think we will see more of this and only plug and play parts will be available to the home mechanic.

This is a bit sad to me since I used to do all of my own bike and car repairs and that is no longer possible with either one.

[DonTom]

This is an interesting discussion!

I can see the manufacturers view on not selling owners certain components or parts that need specialized training and equipment to install.  Liability laws being what they are the manufacturer may just decide to play it safe from lawsuits if the owner or untrained individual screws up the repair.

I can also see the manufacturer not wanting to distribute required proprietary software that then could be copied and distributed to competitors.

I am not on the manufacturer's side on all of this, but they do have some valid arguments for not selling certain parts and discouraging some DIY repair and maintenance items.

As we go more and more high-tech I think we will see more of this and only plug and play parts will be available to the home mechanic.

This is a bit sad to me since I used to do all of my own bike and car repairs and that is no longer possible with either one.

All this could be a good thing. No doubt millions are lost to the auto service industry every year because of people like you and me who do 90% of our own maintenance and repairs.


With EVs,  there is so little that the owners can do, it will help make up for the  lost when there is so little maintenance involved. IOW, will help keep the economy  going.


Or else, stuff like this could become a problem in the near future. First on the list is:


"Auto Repair Shops will disappear"

-Don-  Reno, NV

[togo]

Please provide the encoder part number so we can update ZeroManual.com with that information and help others be able to get their motorcycles fixed without regard to their dealer and Zero Motorcycles cooperation.

And also please keep us informed if you choose to pursue Right To Repair legal action.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

"I am very angry that Zero has prevented me from achieving a timely and economic repair in order to protect their trade secrets. I believe they are acting in direct contravention of the EU right to repair regulations."
I think Zero was not too unreasonable in this case. I would argue that by offering to sell the motor as a spare part they are fulfilling any law that requires them to allow the customer to repair the motorcycle. How deep do you want to go? Provide you with a discrete component for a part that they themselves bought as a complete unit?
There seems to be confusion here regarding the difference between OEM manufacturer (the motor), assembly manufacturer (Zero), dealer (independant, not part of Zero), and owner of equipment (you). Different regions also have different laws regarding warranty. OEM motor manufacturer in Kingdom of Far Far Away is not liable for users motorcycle repairs in Timbukstan. In certain circumstances the dealer might be. There is also a difference if the the party is individual or corporate. For corporate (OEM motor manufacturer and Zero) the warranty is almost certainly expired before the motorcycle hits the road. Contracts can also be very different. Dealers often have contracts giving them discount on products, but making them liable for the warranty work and all related taxes. The most the manufacturer will have to cover is the part itself, even without shipping. Dealers are not obligated to work on equipment bought from other dealers.

I tend to see these things from both sides. Worked for 10 years for one of our customers. Have been working for the manufacturer for another 10 years.
The highest failure rate in our machines is a 50 cent SMD fuse. Clearly marked F2 on the PCB. It tends to fail when the "service personnel" hot swaps parts. Ignoring the big sticker saying "Do not hot swap parts.". The fuse is easily accessible and can be replaced in 2 minutes, using soldering iron. We sell the PCB for about 600, it takes an hour to replace in the assembly. We sell the complete assembly for about 4000, it takes 5 minutes to replace. So many of our customers have cut costs by firing the electrical engineer technicians, and adding their jobs to the "service personnel", that we end up selling lot of the complete assemblies. We don't provide schematics to end customers. The schematics and firmware are company property, and trade secrets. Dealers who have signed a nondisclosure agreement can access them. If you think you have right to access the schematics, have your lawyer talk to our lawyer and draw up a contract. Be prepared to sign NDA, and pay monthly fee for the access. If the customer cannot measure the clearly marked fuse, right next to the connector, to see if it's faulty, they'll have no idea how to read a schematic.
As for removing the (I assume part number, not serial number) markings from components. I see no reason for that and tend to think it happened during assembly/disassembly. It's easy for electrical engineer technician (who has spent years in trade school, comparable to MIT) to recognize an encoder and know how to fix it. It's more difficult for service personnel that watched a training video once.

[Andrew Zero S]

Final Upshot.

The bike has been working almost perfectly with the after market encoder. Zero doesn't begrudge me any software I need. (And they replaced the battery under guarantee without a quibble).

The only ongoing problem with the encoder is that the offset is not absolutely perfect. This means there is a bit of shudder under maximum power which only happens acelerating hard from 60mph to 70mph. Thankfully it doesn't happen at hard acceleration from standing, the most important feature of the bike for me.

Perhaps there is no way of replacing an encoder to be be perfectly tuned with its engine without replacing them both en bloc, and maybe Zero's proposal was the only definitive repair.

Would love to know how to get offset tuning done perfectly, apparently its a real chore. Can Zero help ..........

Andrew