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[gyrocyclist]

There is a wiki page to update for this:

https://zeromanual.com/index.php/EV_Charging#Charging_Networks

Great; many thanks!

[MrDude_1]

The free stations seem to more and more be full from someone living close by trying to save a couple cents by not charging at home and charging somewhere else for free.  (I admit that was a fun game the first 3 weeks I had my Zero in 2012, but some people are obsessed with doing that and so it makes clipper creeks in high demand areas never available)

I used to think this until recently. Some people dont have a garage or parking spot they can plug in at, and have to rely on these charging spots for everyday use. New guy at my work has to walk a 1/4 mile to his leaf everyday. He just moved here and its hard to find an inexpensive place to live near work. He ended up in a place where he thought he could street charge with a cord but turns out he cannot. The city doesnt like cords.

[Doug S]

This is a difficult time for us who are still "early" adopters of the technology. The infrastructure just isn't quite adequate to make widespread adoption possible, and the technology isn't widespread enough to drive fast infrastructure creation quite yet. The snowball's just starting to roll downhill.

I like to remind myself what the early ICE vehicle adopters went through 100 years or so ago on our behalf. I hear that gasoline was, at best, sold in cans at some hardware stores. You really had to be committed to your horseless carriage to make it work.

[Richard230]

This is a difficult time for us who are still "early" adopters of the technology. The infrastructure just isn't quite adequate to make widespread adoption possible, and the technology isn't widespread enough to drive fast infrastructure creation quite yet. The snowball's just starting to roll downhill.

I like to remind myself what the early ICE vehicle adopters went through 100 years or so ago on our behalf. I hear that gasoline was, at best, sold in cans at some hardware stores. You really had to be committed to your horseless carriage to make it work.

Doug is right about finding gasoline in the good ole days.  Also, you had to use LPA (light pedal assistance) to get up hills.  Books about motorcycle history mention that more than one early motorcycle owner had a heart attack while using LPA.  At least that isn't a problem with electric motorcycles and scooters.  But maybe it is with all of the heavy e-bikes that are coming into the market lately. 

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I'll do a little back-of-the-napkin calculation for the sake of argument and since I just got back from a somewhat challenging Zero trip where I had a lot of time to think:

Given the energy equivalent of 33.4kWh/gal for gasoline/petroleum (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent):

11.4kWh (nominal) amounts to 0.341 gal of petrol.

A 1C charge rate then is 0.341 gal/hr or 0.005688 gal/min * 768 teaspoon/gal = 4.368 teaspoons of petrol equivalent per minute.

That's 0.07 teaspoons of gasoline per second, and there are roughly 100 drops in a teaspoon, which means you could watch the same energy transfer by watching single drops of gasoline fall from a spigot!

And on top of that, in some places you can only get this drip rate once every 60-100 miles (RV parks' 50A plug if it works fully) for a connection fee of $10 ($5 or free with minimal persuasion, but you get the idea).

So, yeah, gasoline is massively more convenient right now with a huge stack of infrastructure supporting in and spent just distributing it. I spent a few times during my trip mentioning how a Tesla with the largest purchasable battery of 100kWh yields the energy equivalent of 3 gallons of petrol. The electric infrastructure in the USA is only barely ready to support EV usage, and it helps a lot to have Tesla's and other auto manufacturers' weight thrown behind charging network buildout.

[liveforphysics]

You worked out the correct thermal energy transfer rate. As thermal energy doesn't twist a shaft without some inherently very lossy conversions to shaft power, our charge rate taking on equal 'traction useful' energy is about 3.5-4x better than your estimate.  However, this just means faster dripping, and I agree whole heartedly that a modern EV charge infrastructure needs to be shifted up at least a full order of magnitude in charging power rates.

The 32amp 220vac J plug stations are a brilliant play by SAE (the oil companies RnD front) to ensure all the infrastructure being installed today (aside from Tesla superchargers and CHAdeMO etc) offers only the cosmetic gesture of charging rather than being useful infrastructure to enable an all EV future.

I try not to stop to charge unless it's a site I can tap 3 Jplugs minimum and max them all out, and this still seems inadequate for a motorcycle....

I'll do a little back-of-the-napkin calculation for the sake of argument and since I just got back from a somewhat challenging Zero trip where I had a lot of time to think:

Given the energy equivalent of 33.4kWh/gal for gasoline/petroleum (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent):

11.4kWh (nominal) amounts to 0.341 gal of petrol.

A 1C charge rate then is 0.341 gal/hr or 0.005688 gal/min * 768 teaspoon/gal = 4.368 teaspoons of petrol equivalent per minute.

That's 0.07 teaspoons of gasoline per second, and there are roughly 100 drops in a teaspoon, which means you could watch the same energy transfer by watching single drops of gasoline fall from a spigot!

And on top of that, in some places you can only get this drip rate once every 60-100 miles (RV parks' 50A plug if it works fully) for a connection fee of $10 ($5 or free with minimal persuasion, but you get the idea).

So, yeah, gasoline is massively more convenient right now with a huge stack of infrastructure supporting in and spent just distributing it. I spent a few times during my trip mentioning how a Tesla with the largest purchasable battery of 100kWh yields the energy equivalent of 3 gallons of petrol. The electric infrastructure in the USA is only barely ready to support EV usage, and it helps a lot to have Tesla's and other auto manufacturers' weight thrown behind charging network buildout.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

You worked out the correct thermal energy transfer rate. As thermal energy doesn't twist a shaft without some inherently very lossy conversions to shaft power, our charge rate taking on equal 'traction useful' energy is about 3.5-4x better than your estimate.  However, this just means faster dripping, and I agree whole heartedly that a modern EV charge infrastructure needs to be shifted up at least a full order of magnitude in charging power rates.

The 32amp 220vac J plug stations are a brilliant play by SAE (the oil companies RnD front) to ensure all the infrastructure being installed today (aside from Tesla superchargers and CHAdeMO etc) offers only the cosmetic gesture of charging rather than being useful infrastructure to enable an all EV future.

I try not to stop to charge unless it's a site I can tap 3 Jplugs minimum and max them all out, and this still seems inadequate for a motorcycle....

Thanks for the conversion factor corrections; that'll help make a better argument however I try to form it on the wiki/manual.

220VAC are an important broad first step in adoption and awareness, even if it's frustrating. Part of my Pacific Northwest trip annoyance was how to find even 2 available 6.6 J stations in cable-spanning distance to charge at 4-brick 1C. So I wound up bouncing between hotel J/Tesla stations, RV parks, and the broadly-available expensive J stations where necessary.


Even the RV stations were at their best providing 45A in a 50A plug and another nearly-30A out of a secondary plug.

Until there's a widely-available HVDC network with reliable step-down, this is the situation, though: plotting trips between the largest AC outlet clusters already set up.

[ElectricZen]

One to add, not so many in the USA but they appear to be the bomb if you ever do coast to coast in Canada.

suncountryhighway.com

SunCountryHighway's SCH100 chargers can handle 80 amps, that's full 1C charging on any Zero from a single J-plug!

There aren't many around but you can sponsor one if you want!

https://www.suncountryhighway.com/en/Product/Sponsor-a-Charger

(you pay for a charger and they do all the regulatory and installation stuff.)

I recall there being one on the way to Reno that was sponsored by a Tesla club, and there are several near the bay area at hotels.

I just wanted to quickly vouch for how awesome the sun country network is in Canada.  My experience with them on the west coast is awesome!  For reference, they are just branded(front cover) Clipper Creek stations. They are usually a solo station as they are one of first EV stations installed in Canada.  But a lot of little towns have them .  Usually the ONLY station in the whole town minus the local RV park.  Most are at least 60 amp stations with a few as high as 80amps.  Though because they sell residential stations 30 amps and 15 amp stations are out there.

Charge point is the preferred network for all the reasons Terry mentioned.  However, you have to watch for 3.3-6-6kw shared stations that share a total of 9.9kw or so.  Common in singlular applications and in rows at the ends closest to the store front. 

FLO, formerly "add energie" (french?) Is another large network in populated areas in Canada.  I keep getting mixed results so 5-6kw is best guess.  Faulting the station, is no big deal, just let the station reset put everything back.  But annoying.  I have checked CSA specs stamped on every station I have used: 30 amps...  Requires a card... $10 CAD.  And maybe by phone app.  Otherwise find someone with a card at local facility.  (I try and avoid this one).

Eaton- usually at banks... Lol.  20-30amps 4.4-6kw.  Rare. Is pretty much much a plug and play but my experience has been about a 50% hit rate with the diginow.  Uncertain that the Zero charger would be a different outcome.  But I haven't run into one that didn't having another station a short distance away... Lol...yet!   

There quick 411 on Western Canada [emoji23]

Plus Tesla's of course.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Skidz]

It just struck me, that those companies putting chargepoints in places deliver fairly low power with mixed results but a newcomer company like Tesla builds a *very* large network (Continental US, Canada, all over Europe) using a single standard and delivering loads of power... Why can't GE or EDF (Or Vattenfall using green power) build a network like this... They are orders of magnitude bigger than Tesla and already have the infra...

[DPsSRnSD]

The last Tesla to take on General Electric died a pauper.

[MrDude_1]

The last Tesla to take on General Electric died a pauper.

LOL.

It just struck me, that those companies putting chargepoints in places deliver fairly low power with mixed results but a newcomer company like Tesla builds a *very* large network (Continental US, Canada, all over Europe) using a single standard and delivering loads of power... Why can't GE or EDF (Or Vattenfall using green power) build a network like this... They are orders of magnitude bigger than Tesla and already have the infra...

the U.S. charging network came into being largely through a number of large U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) grants that let the network provider choose their system. Since most of the network providers were also charge station manufacturers, this served as motivation for an EV infrastructure land grab.

(stolen from here and edited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Charge_Point_Protocol )

[togo]

> I just wanted to quickly vouch for how awesome the sun country network is in Canada.  My experience with them on the west coast is awesome!  For reference, they are just branded(front cover) Clipper Creek stations.

Thanks!  That's good to know.

https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80

I'll see if I can find high-amp clipper creek stations listed somewhere for the metamap.

[togo]

Aerovironment has a $19.99/mo *unlimited* charging plan, and good coverage along coastal Oregon and Washington, so it's a network to look into if you charge there.  Their per-session price is $4, so they obviously have cars rather than motorcycles on the mind.  I favor pricing that encourages people to move on and not occupy spaces.  $1/hr or 15c/kw is ideal.

https://www.evsolutions.com/Upload/Evnetwork/WCEH_Map.pdf