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Author Topic: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle  (Read 1183 times)

ultrarnr

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Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« on: February 06, 2016, 01:36:27 AM »

Seems Suzuki is going to produce a hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle. Tests on public roads in Japan will begin in 2016.

I doubt we will see this in the US anytime soon.


http://insideevs.com/suzuki-intends-to-commercialize-hydrogen-fuel-cell-motorcycles/
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2016, 01:56:51 AM »

Hydrogen:- because it's too difficult for the average person to manufacture. Therefore control continues to stay in the hands of energy companies and the taxman gets his cut. Billions of taxpayers' money has already been squandered on it just to protect future revenue.  I'm anti hydrogen.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2016, 07:38:25 AM »

I agree with bonkers.  Hydrogen fuel cells are only a win for the energy industry that want to keep the fossil fuel economic models alive.  Batteries scare them because you can recharge anywhere.

I couldn't express how dumb hydrogen fuel cells are any better than Elon Musk



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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2016, 03:13:45 PM »

Thanks for posting that video.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2016, 03:55:37 PM »

I've decided to start a petition on this. I'll start a new topic.
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KrazyEd

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 12:17:59 PM »

I hope that buyers live near one of the EIGHTEEN stations across the US.
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protomech

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2016, 07:48:30 PM »

Fuel Cell EVs (FCEVs) and Battery EVs (BEVs) share much of the drivetrain. Both are EVs, so motor controller / motor / DC/DC are common. The difference is how they supply DC power into the motor controller.

FCEV:
- burst power requires either a backing battery or an oversized fuel cell. Backing battery can be used to make a FCEV a plugin hybrid.
- continuous power is expensive (larger fuel cell) but improving.
- energy is cheap (larger or higher pressure tank), but can't really improve (10k PSI is basically a hard limit)

BEV:
- burst power is basically free with the right chemistry, can be a limitation (Zero SR ZF13 pack can supply > 100 kW in burst, but Model S P85/90D power is limited by pack chemistry not motors). Will generally improve as battery sizes increase.
- continuous power is basically free as well, but can be a limitation. ZF11.4 packs can supply 40 kW continuous, but motors likely to overheat before pack power becomes a limitation. ZF13 packs can probably supply >50 kW continuous. Also improves as battery size improves.
- energy is expensive (volume / weight / cost) but improving quickly.

A great example is the Suzuki Burgman FCEV scooter discussed above. It was released originally in 2011, and had a range of 200 miles at 20 mph. The 2011 Zero S had a range of about 50 miles at similar speeds.

Fast forward to 2016, 5 years later.

The FCEV scooter is probably less expensive now, due to improved fuel cells (but likely north of $20k still). Range probably hasn't improved (200 miles at 20 mph, probably 80-100 miles at 70 mph).

There's still virtually no hydrogen refilling infrastructure. The few stations that exist are split between 5k and 10k PSI stations; the 5k stations can only refill a FCEV to 50%. Destination refilling is nonexistent.

The largest battery Zero S has a range of about 250 miles at 20 mph. The FXS ZF6 is similar in weight and cost to the 2011 Zero S, but has more than twice the power and > 100 miles of range.

DC quick charge stations are now relatively common around most large cities. Tesla's supercharger network now covers several coast to coast routes and many interstates. There are 3 competing standards, but many new QC stations support both CHAdeMO and CCS. Destination recharging is common and cheap to deploy.

What will it look like in 5 years?

- Fuel cells probably relatively inexpensive. Small scooters 5 kW will be < $10k. Hydrogen refilling infrastructure probably fleshed out in states where supported by state grants (California), nonexistent elsewhere.

- Battery prices much cheaper, likely < $200/kWh for assembled pack. Traditional manufacturers will have entered the market in earnest, providing competition to Zero. Capacity unlikely to improve hugely (20-50%), but aero improvements could improve range to > 200 highway miles.

DC QC stations will have standardized (either everyone uses CCS or virtually all stations support CHAdeMO and CCS). Most interstate routes are well-supported by QC every 100 miles or so, gen 2 EVs with ~200 miles of range (including bikes) can travel with relative freedom. Tesla will continue to set the benchmark for ease of use and can respond to capacity much more quickly than third party charging systems.

In a magic world where hydrogen infrastructure was fully filled in, I think FCEV plugin hybrids would be interesting. Enough fuel cell power for sustained highway operation (40 kW car, 15-20 kW bike), enough burst battery power and energy for 30-50 miles of daily travel (think Volt but FC instead of gas motor/generator). I don't think we're likely to see that world anytime soon, and packaging that system on a bike would be tough anyways.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Suzuki going to produce hydrogen fuel cell motorcycle
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2016, 01:14:14 AM »

Thanks promotech, lots of great info there.

To my mind it seems to be about the psychology of it all. If people can get their heads around quick charging on long trips rather than filling up, then there really is no need for hydrogen. Besides, as batteries become cheaper, I don't see how hydrogen will be able to compete. You still need all the same equipment and you add the fuel cell etc on top.  It might be worthwhile for lorries, but surely not for personal transport.
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