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[steven_first]

I watched the webinar from Zero (not live) and the one thing that came up was racing and competing in the Isle of Man race.  Zero does not seem to have the capitol invest into it but it seems that they would be willing to participate.  So my girlfriend being the type that she is brought up the idea of doing some sort of crowd sourcing like kick starter or indigo-go.  I for one would pay some money to see Zero compete in this race and show what their bikes can do.  I won't claim to know much of anything about the race other than I had a ps2 game years ago where you did nothing but race the full course.  I have no idea how much it would cost, what would need to be done to enter a bike...how to race...but what I can do is organize events!  Obviously this would be something that if was done Zero and some kind of team (probably Harlan and his team).  Assuming everyone was on board we would need to know how much to raise, what would be needed to race, logistics, etc.

This may just be a pipe dream but it comes down to what everyone out there thinks.  Between Zero and its devoted fan base there are so many ways we could all work together to make this happen!  If it cost $5 - 10,000 to transport a bike and a team and enter then great but if its $??? then is it feasible.  The first killer to kick starter goals is poor prep and unrealistic goals.  The other killer is poor or unmoving videos and campaigns. 

At any rate I think the first step is to start here and get feedback from everyone.  Next would be to go to Zero and maybe have a 2 way talk with them before moving on to anything beyond that because if Zero is not on-board then it kind of kills the whole thing.  Me, I will be very happy to work as the organizer and go between as some of the peeps at Zero know me quite well by now...

What do you guys think?  ALL input welcome!

[trikester]

I think it is a good idea, as you have laid it out. 

Trikester

[Ranga]

I like the enthusiasm Steven, but I see a lot of problems with Zero and the Isle of Man.

Technical problems:

• The stock SR has a top speed that barely crests 100mph on the strait, so it's average would be laughable compared to the race bikes.
• The 75-7R motor is very power dense for a stock motorcycle, but the ones Mugen and Motocysz use are behemoths in comparison.
• Even if the powertrain were modified extensively, the frame is too wide at the bottom and the pegs hit the ground to soon. The SDS models were designed to be commuters, not race bikes.
• Unlike Pike's Peak, I do not believe there is a stock catagory in Isle of Man, only professional vs amateur.

Risk/Reward:

The Isle of Man has an average mortality rate of 2.3 riders a year. Consider the fact that at Zero and Hollywood Electrics, the racers are also the ones that run the business. Zero does not hire professional racers. Kenyon Kluge (former AMA racer) is the leader of K Squared Racing and MotoZero. He is also the head of Electrical Engineering. If he were to compete and be seriously injured or worse, Zero would have a serious problem on their hands.

Racing and Production:

While it is true that racing helps develop the product, there is no need for a company to have a race team, create a competition-only bike like the Empulse RR, or send them to the other side of the world. In Zero's case, all they need to do is go north to Sonoma Raceway, south to Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, or east to Hollister Hills where they do all their dirt testing. All three locations are probably within the bike's range of the headquarters. Zero has on occasion put on special events, but they are generally world firsts. For example, in 2009 Zero hosted the world's first 24 hour electric enduro race using the MX's battery swap system. It was a great way to demonstrate the capabilities and ruggedness of their product. A one-off Isle of Man racer would not have the same effect.

If you and some of Zero's customers wanted to participate in the amateur Isle of Man, I say give them hell. But for now, I don't see a reason for Zero to get involved.

[KrazyEd]

I am not sure of the altitude changes at IOM, but, if you watch the video of Jeff Clark's bike going up Pike's Peak,
there are a few flashes showing 124 mph. Granted, this is still low for a race bike, but, much more respectable than 100.
Even if this were sufficient, there i the question of finishing the race on a single battery. The Victory entries hit a top speed
of 144 mph in the race. Given the advances that are taking place, it should be feasible fairly soon. The Victory ( Brammo )
bikes claimed to use production style parts, vs the One off IOM designed bikes by Mugen which hit a top speed of 162 mph.

[BenS]

It would be great to see Zero at the IOM some time in the future, but they probably don't even need to race for advertising purposes; one of my friends(who rides, too) thought that the bikes in the electric race were actually Zero's, because that's what the race is called! I wouldn't be surprised if the general public watching the race thought the same. Just like, I'd say most, people who watch MotoGP and World Superbikes don't even know that some manufacturers get a handicap advantage(not naming anyone, *cough*Ducati*cough*) nearly every year, and that there are actually different classes in the main MotoGP race.

[protomech]

I like the enthusiasm Steven, but I see a lot of problems with Zero and the Isle of Man.

Technical problems:

• The stock SR has a top speed that barely crests 100mph on the strait, so it's average would be laughable compared to the race bikes.
• The 75-7R motor is very power dense for a stock motorcycle, but the ones Mugen and Motocysz use are behemoths in comparison.
• Even if the powertrain were modified extensively, the frame is too wide at the bottom and the pegs hit the ground to soon. The SDS models were designed to be commuters, not race bikes.
• Unlike Pike's Peak, I do not believe there is a stock catagory in Isle of Man, only professional vs amateur.

With the smaller rear sprocket installed, the Zero SR should be able to hit 110-120 mph; and I believe various racers have indeed seen these speeds on track.

Other benefits to the smaller rear sprocket: shifts the power peak to 70-100 mph instead of 50-70 mph, improves efficiency at higher speeds. Disadvantages: slower acceleration below 70 mph.

I would be a little surprised if the SR could surpass a 90 mph lap. I don't think battery capacity would be a concern; if ~17 kWh is enough for the 100+ kW prototypes, a 50 kW thermal-limited bike should be fine with 13.5 kWh. Might not even need the power tank.

Risk/Reward:

The Isle of Man has an average mortality rate of 2.3 riders a year. Consider the fact that at Zero and Hollywood Electrics, the racers are also the ones that run the business. Zero does not hire professional racers. Kenyon Kluge (former AMA racer) is the leader of K Squared Racing and MotoZero. He is also the head of Electrical Engineering. If he were to compete and be seriously injured or worse, Zero would have a serious problem on their hands.

Zero has used professional racers before, though well in the past.

No track is immune to risks, though IOM is more dangerous than most. Pikes Peak is also up there. The MotoAmerica tragedy this last weekend shows that even a well-prepped track with no "natural" dangers can still be deadly in the wrong circumstances.

Racing and Production:

While it is true that racing helps develop the product, there is no need for a company to have a race team, create a competition-only bike like the Empulse RR, or send them to the other side of the world. In Zero's case, all they need to do is go north to Sonoma Raceway, south to Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, or east to Hollister Hills where they do all their dirt testing. All three locations are probably within the bike's range of the headquarters. Zero has on occasion put on special events, but they are generally world firsts. For example, in 2009 Zero hosted the world's first 24 hour electric enduro race using the MX's battery swap system. It was a great way to demonstrate the capabilities and ruggedness of their product. A one-off Isle of Man racer would not have the same effect.

If you and some of Zero's customers wanted to participate in the amateur Isle of Man, I say give them hell. But for now, I don't see a reason for Zero to get involved.

I don't believe a mass-production electric bike has ever raced at IOM .. discounting the Enertia TTR. Fielding a factory-backed Zero SR would indeed be a first .. though I don't disagree that the cost-benefit analysis is difficult.

[steven_first]

Everyone is making good points on both sides of the matter.  Obviously we can only do so much with speculation because only Zero knows if they would have interest in competing in IOM.  Without their input it is hard to say at what level they would be interested.  If the money was raised and then it was just a mater of having a race bike transported and having a racer would that be enough or is there more to it than that.  I would really like to see Zero compete but I guess it would be smart to ask them directly what it would take to get them to race.

[Richard230]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zero sells (or would like to sell) more motorcycles to fleet customers than to individual enthusiasts. I imagine that fleet customers could care less about racing. What they want is a vehicle that is useful, available at a reasonable price, and is "green" where their community cares about such things.  Zero is all about making money and staying in business (as well as advancing the technology to support those ends). While racing can certainly push the tech, I don't think the cost of competing in the IOM will pencil-out for Zero. No doubt they would be happy to see Zeros in lots of races, they just don't want to pay (very much) for it.   

[benswing]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zero sells (or would like to sell) more motorcycles to fleet customers than to individual enthusiasts.

I think there is an interview (either written or video) in which one of the executives at Zero mentions that switching their focus to fleet sales was a turning point for the company.  They weren't going to grow fast enough solely focusing on individual sales. 

They seem to be supporting some racing in NorCal and with Hollywood Electrics in SoCal, but they are very focused on becoming a profitable company so racing is not a priority.

[Doug S]

When I'm talking to someone about electric motorcycles that doesn't know anything about them, one of my favorite things to point out is that in 2013, an electric bike won the Pike's Peak hill climb overall -- in head-to-head, all-out competition, the Lightning beat every bike with a gasoline engine up the hill. (I haven't verified yet, but I've been told the same is true this year among the cars...does anybody know?) The reactions I get are pretty amazing...a lot of people are clearly still of the "it's a two-wheeled golf cart" mentality, and have a hard time believing they're really very viable vehicles in their own right.

I realize being competitive in the IOM is far harder to do, but I think even just putting up a good challenge to the existing kings of the the sport would be a very, very good way to open peoples' eyes about what's possible on this platform.

[teddillard]

  (I haven't verified yet, but I've been told the same is true this year among the cars...does anybody know?) ...

Yes, that is true: http://insideevs.com/evs-won-2015-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-with-new-record-unofficial/

[steven_first]

I can't find any videos of this years PPHC electric contenders...any links?

[protomech]

Rhys Millen in the eO PP03 overall winning run:
! No longer available

Not many videos of the bikes.

Hollywood Electrics going through tech:
! No longer available

Burnouts during the parade ride down the mountain:
! No longer available

Yoshihiro Kishimoto, riding a custom racebike with a Zero SR powertrain (top electric bike on the mountain this year):
! No longer available