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[benswing]

From another thread...

This is only MY opinion.........

THERE IS ONLY ONE PLACE TO EVER BUY A ZERO.     HOLLYWOOD ELECTRICS ROCKS       HARLAN IS FANTASTIC

Ok, I did it.  I think that is the first time I have ever "yelled" on a forum but I simply can not speak highly enough about the quality treatment I have received from HE and Harlan in particular.

That is the key to Harlan's success.  He is an EE; knows the technology and knows what he is doing.  How many other EE's own and operate a motorcycle dealership?  Do I even have to ask?

I think this is a good starting point for a new thread.  There are some well-intentioned motorcycle shops out there that want to sell electric motorcycles, but don't have an EE on hand.  What is really necessary to successfully sell and support Zeros?

We know that Harlan runs a great business (and is an all-around great guy), but what about other Zero Dealers who have been successful?  Can we help dealers who are new to electric motorcycles move up the learning curve faster?  What would that look like?

[CrashCash]

Heck, it's hard to have a successful ICE dealership. One is Ron Ayers in North Carolina. I buy from them over my local dealers because I can go to their site (http://www.ronayers.com/FJ1300-FJR13AW-C473922.aspx) and see the part I want, how much it costs, and have it sent directly to my door. Clickety-click, done. In addition, the part is usually 10%-15% cheaper than my local dealer.

This is as opposed to my dealer, where I have to describe the part to the monkey, and we spend 20 minutes trying to find it. Then I order it, pay full chunk, and wait... and wait... and wait... finally I call, only to find my part arrived over a week ago. Then I have to drive down there and pick it up. I still have a 20% chance it's the wrong part somehow. (Edit: as of today, I've waited 39 days for my Zero parts to get here, and 46 days for the bike itself)

2007-2008 FJRs have a 3rd bushing for the front forks and need a special tool to insert it. It took 3 months, a complaint to the BBB, and an insulting call to Yamaha Corporate to finally get it ordered.

On the other hand, I needed a Suzuki USB diagnostic box for my SV-650 to sync my throttle bodies. I got the part number, gave Ron Ayers $300 and that part number, and in a week I had it on my doorstep. In nearly 40 orders, they've NEVER screwed up. *THAT* is what helps make a successful dealership.

Hollywood Electrics needs to do a similar job advertizing their special sauces over the internet to people like me that want to buy, but happen to be in Florida.

Right now, I need to find out about it on the forum (e.g. Elcon 2500s, various connectors and jumpers) and give them the special handshake to order it. That's ok, but for their business to grow past forum members, they need to get the word out better than that.

The hollywoodelectrics.com website is about as shitty and uninformative as it gets. Now I know personally how hard it is to design a decent site, but he can do better than that. At least list some of the services and accessories he sells.

Now I'm not beating up on HE themselves. I think they're awesome for offering this stuff you can't get anywhere else. I just want them to be even more successful and I think the can be. He's got a lot of rare specialized knowledge and value-add, and he just needs to sell it.

There is nothing separating any of the Zero dealers. "We'll sell ya a bike and parts, at Zero's prices. And maybe we can solve problems with it, maybe not." There's no value-add. I would like to see HE set an example for others to emulate.

Now my Brammo test drive at Euro Cycles of Tampa was how NOT to sell a bike. After I did the test drive, the salesman waffled on the price, quoted a HUGE amount to get my bike from Tampa to Orlando, and finally did "well we gotta leftover white one we might sell you, take it or leave it" and I left it.

[SopFu]

Good topic!

If I were to ever leave my current job, I would probably look at doing the e-dealership thing. I've been thinking about this a lot lately...

I think it's important to note the difference between a dealership that customers like, and one that can stay in business. If I were to do something right now, I'd be focusing mostly on fleet sales - private security and police forces. I wouldn't be afraid of selling to a consumer, but I can't see how the economics makes sense focusing on consumers now. There is only one other electric bike I know of within 300 miles of me. That is not a market that can sustain a business! The question for me is when does the tide switch, and who is going to still be making bikes when it does? And when will the current ICE manufactures figure it out and will they be able to convert their existing dealers? (That might not matter because it seems all the local ICE dealers are also going out of business...)

Harlen has a lot of advantages being in LA. I don't think his model works many other places right now. There just isn't enough demand for two Hollywoods. Being an EE is great for the first adopters, and for creating any custom accessory add-ons, but that advantage isn't going to last long. Then he'll just be relying on the brand he's developed and customer service like any other retail outlet. That'll be good for years to come, it sounds like. I'd be lieing if I didn't say I was jealous.

[benswing]

What I would really like to figure out is "what are the qualities a regular motorcycle dealership would need in order to successfully sell electric motorcycles?" 

For example, Hollywood Electrics sells only electric motorcycles and ebikes and no gas bikes or regular bikes.  They are set up to do that because they are electrical engineers who love 2-wheeled transport. 

Mission Motorcycles in San Fran sells several motorcycle brands including Zeros and seem to be successful at it.  For electric motorcycles to get out to the public, we need more of this type of shop. 

Or do you think a dealership needs an electrical engineer on staff to appropriately respond to service calls?

[lolachampcar]

Well, for starters I suggest you do not do this when  customer asks for his deposit back because you fail to do what you say you will do-
My note to Mark Seeger at Mission is below and the top was his response.



Bill you have made a point to express nothing but disapointment. $100 is the cancellation fee that we are charged for refunding the cash/processing payment

Please never contact me again. You have been the singular most disappointing contact I have yet had.

Enjoy your time

Mark

On Saturday, December 20, 2014, <bill@lolachampcar.com> wrote:
Mark,

I got a check in the mail today.  Thank you.

I was a bit surprised that it was $900 instead of the $1000 I put on
deposit.  I seemed to remember you telling me I could get the deposit back
at any time.  I suspect there is some paperwork somewhere or an "I Agree"
button on the web site that has a "you only get XYZ" back statement.  I'm
afraid I took you at your word when you said you would return the deposit
should I ask and thus I'm a bit disappointed.  It is especially
disappointing given that I did everything I said I would do and Mission
failed to deliver on two separate occasions.

We have been over most of the above already so I do not expect the
remaining $100.  I think I will just count myself lucky to have received
the $900.  Enjoy the $100.

Regards,
Bill Hart

[Richard230]

My BMW dealer has been negotiating with Zero to become a dealer (so I have been told by one of their staff) for the past few months and the last I heard he was still waiting for a response to some questions that he had asked.  I hope they can become a Zero dealer as I think it would be a good fit for the shop.  But they are caught between the marketing demands of three competing brands (who all want their bikes to be the first you see when entering the showroom) and the expense of needing to train their technicians to work on each model of motorcycle that they sell.  That must be a daunting and expensive task, as in some cases the tech must be sent to the brand's factory service school to learn how to work on the latest new technology that shows up every year.  So taking on an entirely new product and technology like Zero, with a minimal track record, or service and parts infrastructure (compared with the major brands) must keep established IC motorcycle shop owners awake at night.

Then too, how many electrical engineers, or the like, really want to work in a motorcycle shop when they could be making a lot more money, benefits and security, working for Google, Facebook, etc.?  It is going to be a tough challenge for shops to deal with after-market service and Zero needs to make it as easy as possible for them - which I am not sure they are doing right now.  I think their expansion plans are outpacing their ability to support all of their dealers and customers.   

[CrashCash]

it seems all the local ICE dealers are also going out of business...

Good point. I forgot to mention 4 of the local dealers have gone out of business in the past 3 years.

I've personally noticed 2 classes of dealers:

1. The run of the mill dealer. They sell bikes and parts. Here's the clutch, front brake, rear brake, 1downsixup, have fun!
"Yeah, we gotta couple of those Zero electric bikes! People luv 'em! Want one?"
The bikes aren't expensive, but the parts & service sure are.
If your bike breaks, and it's out of warranty, well "sucks to be you, mate!"
The service techs are held to the book time, and if your problem runs over, they'll bodge it to get it back out the door. It's a stretch to expect your tire to be mounted right-way-round or actually balanced.
If your e-bike breaks, they can't do anything except shrug their shoulders and call Brammo or Zero. If the manufacturer can't help, you're probably stuck.
These are probably the guys that we normally think of.

Most of these guys that went out of business simply got a bad reputation as being a crap dealer.

2. Snobbish "Bikes are expensive toys and we're here to hold your hand so you can play"
These are the guys that sell Ducatis, BMW, MV Agustas, and maybe Brammo. Probably not Zero, and DEFINITELY not the common peon brands of Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki.
"Oh look, Lucy, some poor guy rode in on a Honda!"
Everything is expensive, but they'll beat up the manufacturer on your behalf if something breaks, because that's life with a BMW or a Ducati. If your e-bike breaks, they're probably clueless but they'll spend a lot of time on getting it fixed.
Free coffee and doughnuts, and some of the staff's leathers hanging on the wall. They'll have monthly get-togethers and arranged track days.
Every logoed & branded accessory under the sun.

One type 2 tried to become a type 1. The formerly coddled & hand-held customers got pissed off and left. Everyone else remembered their reputation as "EXPENSIVE" and wouldn't give them another chance.

Or do you think a dealership needs an electrical engineer on staff to appropriately respond to service calls?

They don't need a full EE, but I don't think 90% of the ICE techs have the slightest clue how to debug/troubleshoot/support an e-bike. They barely have the electrical knowledge to fix charging/ignition problems on an ICE, and usually it's "Harry knows electric stuff, give it to him"

None of them know computers, not even the parts-ordering system, and if you ask them to "put the BMS logs on a USB stick" it'll be like speaking Martian to a cocker spaniel.

Most techs just go through a tech-mill like MMI (Motorcycle Mechanics Institute) or whatever, and that's it. If Zero/Brammo doesn't train them, they won't bother to find out on their own.

So this illustrates the great problem of this thread: the big tech-mills like MMI need to add an ebike specialty, and Zero/Brammo need to step up like Honda & Harley-Davidson did, to donate bikes and instructors.

I know for certain the techs at my local dealer didn't get training from Zero. If they need to install a Power Tank, they follow the enclosed instructions. If I ask anyone about level 1/2 charging, or CHAdeMO, it's a blank deer-in-the-headlights stare.

[CrashCash]

I guess what I'm saying is none of the regular dealers say "hey, these e-bikes are a completely different beast. we need to have people that understand them, from the sales to the service tech level"

They probably consider an e-bike to be a glorified scooter, and not worth the expense to fully comprehend. "Eh, it's an electric motor instead of gas. Not that big a difference, the throttle's some kinda rheostat thingie to control the engine."

It wouldn't even *occur* to them that they need to send a tech for training. They don't even *know* there's different charging/battery technologies. But they DO need training, and lots of it. You don't need to be an EE, but you need to be exposed to the concepts and the theory. You need to know "hey there's a huge complicated computer in here called a Battery Management System, and it keeps the touchy lithium-ion cells balanced and happy. If it isn't balanced, the cells can crossfeed and it all goes to hell. There's also a motor controller that completely controls the throttle and engine characteristics of the entire bike. All this stuff can go wonky in subtle complicated ways."

Hollywood Electrics has simply bothered to become an expert in e-bikes and the associated technologies like charging.

That's why they stand out. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Harlan *has* had training, he's an EE. Since there's no "electric-bike training" that's how you get it.

That's how I learned computers 35 years ago. I had to bust butt and learn dribs and drabs from any source I could find. Now you have high-school computer classes and you can go to college.

Electric bikes are where personal computers were 30 years ago, with the same lack of general knowledge and support infrastructure.

The dealers that get the training and simply just spend the time/expense to understand EVs will be the ones that succeed.

[Richard230]

Great comments CrashCash.  I also suspect that some dealers, especially around here, are worried that if one of their technicians becomes an expert on electric vehicle power trains they just might ask for a raise and if they don't get it they will move on to a Tesla dealer, where you get paid well and have good benefits.  I heard through the "grapevine" that several of the best technicians at my BMW dealership bugged out of the shop this summer and set up their own independent repair/service shops because the shop cut their wages - perhaps because they needed funds to renovate the showroom to conform to BMW's latest requirements for their franchised dealers.   

[MotoRyder]

By CrashCash —

The dealers that get the training and simply just spend the time/expense to understand EVs will be the ones that succeed.

Yes Indeed, those that make the proper investments to learn this new technology are best positioned to reap the rewards as the market matures. 

Yet, another component is needed to help these dealers succeed, and stay in business.
The statement by SopFu speaks directly to the crux of the matter —

There is only one other electric bike I know of within 300 miles of me. That is not a market that can sustain a business!

Successful dealers need fully involved brands, where worthy marketing campaigns are planned and carried out to promote the product category, their brand, and the products themselves. 

Expecting the dealers to mostly carry this burden without leadership from the brands themselves reminds me of another quote I read recently,
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.  – Sun Tzu"

[SopFu]

If the question is what kind of expertise is needed to repair the bikes, an EE is probably not the most appropriate. If anything breaks in the electrical system, the fix is almost always to replace the part that broke, not repair. The real specialized expertise is being able to hook up the diagnostic computer to figure out which part broke. I don't think an engineering degree is needed, but someone who is computer savvy probably is.

Now if someone wants to design new parts, like added chargers or beefier motors or controllers, then an EE and software engineer would be very helpful. But that's not something anyone is really asking for right now, other than the crazys collecting iron butt medals. I doubt anyone is making money off of those mods. The service requirements for these bikes require far less expertise than a typical ICE since most of the repairs are plug an play. But there is still specific expertise needed. Until the bikes start selling at a level that will necessitate repeat repairs, that expertise is not going to be developed or retained. I know when my Brammo has been worked on, the techs have always has to call Brammo HQ at some point in the service and Brammo HQ was able to verify the updates were installed correctly via the web. And I am not faulting the techs at all in those cases and appreciate the diligence provided.

[Harlan]

Hollywood Electrics needs to do a similar job advertizing their special sauces over the internet to people like me that want to buy, but happen to be in Florida.

Right now, I need to find out about it on the forum (e.g. Elcon 2500s, various connectors and jumpers) and give them the special handshake to order it. That's ok, but for their business to grow past forum members, they need to get the word out better than that.

The hollywoodelectrics.com website is about as shitty and uninformative as it gets. Now I know personally how hard it is to design a decent site, but he can do better than that. At least list some of the services and accessories he sells.

Now I'm not beating up on HE themselves. I think they're awesome for offering this stuff you can't get anywhere else. I just want them to be even more successful and I think the can be. He's got a lot of rare specialized knowledge and value-add, and he just needs to sell it.

There is nothing separating any of the Zero dealers. "We'll sell ya a bike and parts, at Zero's prices. And maybe we can solve problems with it, maybe not." There's no value-add. I would like to see HE set an example for others to emulate.

As the guy who manages the HE website, I understand your criticism and apologize for the deficiencies of the site. I hate to make excuses but we have limited resources and unfortunately website updating is a lot of work. We have recently redone the website to make it easier to add content but it still takes time and we've been focusing our energy on bringing in more customers into our family of electric motorcycle owners.

Hopefully soon, maybe even over the holidays, I'll have some time to add a section on our aftermarket products which we have been working diligently on as we continue expand our product catalog. If you or anyone has any accessories they would like for their motorcycle, please contact me so we can better understand your needs and see if there is anything we have that can immediately address them.

As for the thread topic, I don't know that it takes an EE to run a successful electric motorcycle shop but electric motorcycles really are the perfect combination of my two passions, (electrical engineering x motorcycles), and I think our customers appreciate how knowledgeable and enthusiastic we are for the bikes, but once they take one for a spin they really sell themselves.

[CrashCash]

COOL!! Thank you! It was my frustration of "I know he sells cool stuff! What other cool stuff is there I don't know about?!"

Websites are a huge task. The prepackaged stuff sucks, making one yourself is build-the-pyramids time, and dealing with a consultant is a nightmare, and it all takes too much time and energy. My day job is being one of the minions toiling away developing support.oracle.com.

I hope you end up with a good Content Management System and I wish I had time to help.