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[Olav]

I'm planning to get the 2014 FX and was doing some research into the Government incentives that are available.

As most people already know:

There's a 10% tax rebate on qualified two wheeled vehicles and accessories when purchased on same invoice.

There's a 30% rebate on charging accessories.

"Charging accessories may be eligible for a 30% federal tax credit when billed on a separate invoice."

My thought would be to purchase the FX with one battery getting the 10% credit.

Then, put an extra battery on a separate invoice along with an external charger( which I want) to get the 30% credit which would account for  $750.00 off the total for the battery and $180 off the charger.

A net saving of $500.00 is pretty good, like getting the charger for free.


Here's the qualifying rules of interest:

"Qualified Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property
Qualified alternative fuel vehicle refueling property is any property (other than a building or its structural components) used for either of the following.

• To recharge an electric vehicle, but only if the recharging property is located at the point where the vehicle is recharged."

[Richard230]

But will the Federal EV credits expire at the end of this year?  The way things are going in Congress, it seems likely.   

[Olav]

No, I'm confident they won't.

If you look at the document history it spans over 20 years.

8834 Document history


8911 document goes back to 2005

8911 Document history

[Richard230]

Well, I'll find out for sure next year.   

[Olav]

Just to follow up on my experiences trying to actually purchase a 2014 Zero FX!

This is mainly for posterity to anyone that wants to walk the same path as I am and for the sheer ludicracy of the experience.

Read it for the HUMOR!

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Incentives To Review:
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I live in California where we get a $900.00 State incentive for purchasing and keeping an ZEM (Zero Emissions Motorcycle) for three years.

In addition to the Federal Governments incentives of 10% for a qualified vehicle up to $2500.00 and an additional 30% of charging accessories or a max of $1,000.00.

A qualified two wheeled vehicle is propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor that draws electricity from a battery that has a capacity of not less than 2.5 kilowatt hours and is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.

All supporting documents to back up the above claims:

According to the Federal Governments requirements:

Form 8934  Qualified Two- or Three-Wheeled Plug-in Electric Vehicle:
(http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-8834,-Qualified-Plug-in-Electric-and-Electric-Vehicle-Credit)

Form 8911 , Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit
(http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-8911,-Alternative-Fuel-Vehicle-Refueling-Property-Credit)
A 30% credit for charging accessories which includes batteries up to a $1000.00 max for a year.

To claim the California Rebate you need to go to CCSE California Center for Sustainable Enegery
http://energycenter.org/clean-vehicle-rebate-project
Go and pick your vehicle. Fill out the form. Wait.
The Zero FX is clearly a choice.

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Incentives End Review
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I phone the  closest Zero Dealer to me, which is about 60 miles away, Mission Motorcycles on November 07 and talked with Nancy and Teresa and explain to them what I want to do: (Nancy and Teresa are the "Experts")

Me:

- Purchase a 2014 Zero FX 2.8
- On a different invoice purchase a power pack module and a quick charger.

Them:
- Why?

Me:
- I explain the incentive details.

Them:
You can't to that. You can't get an extra battery on separate invoice, You can't get the Cal rebate because the FX 2.8 doesn't pass the "Pomona Loop Test". The FX has a different VIN number distinguishing a 2.8 from a 5.7.  Zero told us that the 5.7 passed the "Pomona Loop Test" but the 2.8 does not.

Me:
Just sell me the items like I want and I'll take care of the Government paperwork.

Them:
No, we can't do that. We can't put the battery on a separate invoice.

Me:
So, if I buy the Zero FX today.
Come in tomorrow and order the battery, that will be on a separate invoice right?

Them:
Yes.

Me:
Well, why do we just do it all at once and save some time.

Them:
Can't do that. We Won't Sell You The Zero FX because you want it funny!

I found the whole conversation circular, comical and the sheer absurdity reminds me of the movie Idiocracy where the main protagonist is trying to explain how to fix the current drought.




So, just for fun I dug into the "Pomona Loop Test" Red Herring. Sure enough it was not legitimate.
I contacted the Air Resources Board ZEV Program contacts at:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/contacts.htm

Thursday, Nov 7.

And talked to Lisa Chiladakis and she plainly stated there is no minimum battery requirement or a "Pomona Loop Test" requirement differentiation on a model. If the model is listed in the list of vehicles eligible then it's eligible and has passed the required tests to get on the list. Plus, you are ultimately getting the max capacity battery for the motorcycle so the question is moot. (I added the last part)

I followed up with Mission Motorcycles and talked to Nancy to tell her that the ARB said the FX is fine the way I want it. Gave her the contact number of Lisa to follow up with and verify from the source.


Friday, Nov 8.
I called Zero Motorcycles HQ and talked with Jason Matson the Sales Operations Manager and explained the whole deal to him.

I said Mission would not sell me a Zero FX in the configuration I want because they believe it won't get the Cal rebate and they can't put a battery on a separate invoice.

He said that sounds weird and everything sounds good from what you said and you can definitely put the battery on a separate invoice. Very clever. Also, the FX VIN numbers do not distinguish between battery configurations.

I said "Great, I'll be going to Mission Motorcycles to put a down payment on a 2014 FX next Tuesday Nov 12 so could you call them and tell them that everything is good to go?

Jason said: "Sure I'll get that cleared up!"

I said "Thanks"


Tuesday November 12

I get to Mission Motorcycles at 9:00am. I've never been there before and my first impression is just like the first impression I got from their web site. '70s

Neither Nancy nor Teresa called anyone at ARB.

Zero didn't call to set them straight.

My drive out there was a waste of time because they still would not sell the bike to me because "It too different, that's not how it's done".

I left without a transaction taking place and not an overall good experience in general.

I do a follow up call with Jason at Zero and he says he'll have to check with the incentive department at Zero into the secret double probation check about the "Pomona Loop Test".

That will take two weeks to get back to you!

He also apologized for not getting back to Mission Motorcycles to clear up the other issues.

So, this whole escapade is weird because, ULTIMATELY, the Zero FX that I was getting will have the full batter packs anyway and the company won't take my CASH!

I've never run into this situation before where a company won't sell you a product because you want to put stuff on a separate invoice for reasons that are essentially none of their business.

ARG!

Anyways, back to Idiocracy!

[Justin Andrews]

Maybe the sales rep only gets commission of the sale of the vehicle + accessories only as a single invoice?
Could it be that splitting the accessories onto a seperate invoice means they only get the comission on the vehicle sale alone and so lose out slightly.

Just a guess.

[Olav]

Maybe the sales rep only gets commission of the sale of the vehicle + accessories only as a single invoice?
Could it be that splitting the accessories onto a seperate invoice means they only get the comission on the vehicle sale alone and so lose out slightly.

Just a guess.

Would that be a good reason to lose a sale?

[protomech]

Form 8834 is used for plugins acquired before 2012.

You want Form 8936, which does indeed sunset in 2014.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf

"What's New
The credit is now available for certain two- or three-wheeled vehicles acquired after 2011 and before 2014."

However, I'm not sure the 2014 bikes will qualify, unless you take delivery prior to Jan 1 2014 or the definition of "tax year" can be shifted to when you take delivery (expect Jan - Feb at earliest).

"The following requirements must be met to qualify for the credit: ...
• You placed the vehicle in service during your tax year;"

Claiming a battery under Form 8911 is also a bit of a stretch, IMO IANAL etc etc.

"Qualified Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property
Qualified alternative fuel vehicle refueling property is any property (other than a building or its structural components) used for either of the following.
...
• To recharge an electric vehicle, but only if the recharging property is located at the point where the vehicle is recharged.
In addition, the following requirements must be met to qualify for the credit.
...
• If the property is not business/investment use property, the property must be installed on property used as your main home."

A plain reading of the form is that it's clearly intended for charging equipment, not for additional traction batteries that will be installed on the vehicle.

However, with both of those things said, I don't see any reason for the dealer to bar the sale unless they fear being complicit in tax fraud. Since you explained your intent to them, they may have wanted to wash their hands of it.

[Olav]

Form 8834 is used for plugins acquired before 2012.

You want Form 8936, which does indeed sunset in 2014.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf

"What's New
The credit is now available for certain two- or three-wheeled vehicles acquired after 2011 and before 2014."

However, I'm not sure the 2014 bikes will qualify, unless you take delivery prior to Jan 1 2014 or the definition of "tax year" can be shifted to when you take delivery (expect Jan - Feb at earliest).

"The following requirements must be met to qualify for the credit: ...
• You placed the vehicle in service during your tax year;"

Yes, 8936

I'm using the forms as an example for future forms.

I'm betting that there will be a form for 2014 as there is no indication it won't continue.

Claiming a battery under Form 8911 is also a bit of a stretch, IMO IANAL etc etc.

"Qualified Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property
Qualified alternative fuel vehicle refueling property is any property (other than a building or its structural components) used for either of the following.
...
• To recharge an electric vehicle, but only if the recharging property is located at the point where the vehicle is recharged.
In addition, the following requirements must be met to qualify for the credit.
...
• If the property is not business/investment use property, the property must be installed on property used as your main home."

A plain reading of the form is that it's clearly intended for charging equipment, not for additional traction batteries that will be installed on the vehicle.

Well, the portable charger "is located at the point where the vehicle is recharged" as I carry it around as is the extra battery.

I don't think it's a stretch at all.

They are both used  to "charge" the vehicle since the battery comes out and another third, fourth, fifth different battery can go in.

This is an interesting special case I suppose where the charger is portable and the batteries are modular by design.

However, with both of those things said, I don't see any reason for the dealer to bar the sale unless they fear being complicit in tax fraud. Since you explained your intent to them, they may have wanted to wash their hands of it.

Well, I don't think they are thinking that deeply believe me. Their reasoning was illogical and never even mentioned a fraud angle. BTW which it is not.

[protomech]

I hope the credit is extended for 2014 (and future years). However, as it sits it expires on Dec 31 and will have to be pushed through Congress again. Fortunately they're a pretty low friction organization, so I'm sure that'll slide right through

If it is pushed through, it will likely be retroactive: for example, I bought my 2012 before the 2012-2013 tax credit was announced but was still covered. But IMO "no indication it won't continue" is very optimistic.

I may be wrong about the rechargeable equipment credit though - I think it's still a stretch, but perhaps it is justifiable. Has anyone here claimed that credit for a FX ZF2.8 + extra battery?

[Olav]

I hope the credit is extended for 2014 (and future years). However, as it sits it expires on Dec 31 and will have to be pushed through Congress again. Fortunately they're a pretty low friction organization, so I'm sure that'll slide right through

If it is pushed through, it will likely be retroactive: for example, I bought my 2012 before the 2012-2013 tax credit was announced but was still covered. But IMO "no indication it won't continue" is very optimistic.

Given the history of the documents and the time until next tax season:

I'm betting it will go through...

I may be wrong about the rechargeable equipment credit though - I think it's still a stretch, but perhaps it is justifiable. Has anyone here claimed that credit for a FX ZF2.8 + extra battery?

I don't know but I'm going to try.

Not to flog a dead horse but frankly, I don't see a problem even though it's seems strange on first glance.

The battery charger is portable and the battery is portable then the recharging property is located at the point where the vehicle is recharged is always going to be true.

Plus the FX is fully operational with one battery so who's to say I don't just drive around with one battery all the time while recharging the second/third/fourth/n.. battery because I want a super light bike or whatever reason. Then I swap batteries thus "recharging" the vehicle.

Nothing to lose really.

[Richard230]

I don't think trying to get the Federal credit for an extra battery will work.  All the IRS cares about is the date of sale, the purchase price, the brand and model and the VIN.  If you don't have all of these items listed on their form in the way that the IRS computer is programmed, the form will not work and it will be kicked back until the computer sees what it likes. If the FX 2.8 and its VIN is in their computer system, you get the rebate.  If it isn't, you don't get the rebate. Trying to get credit for an extra battery won't work, in my opinion.  But the IRS computer will always have the last laugh.

I have been dealing with Mission Motorcycles since I bought a new 1971 Triumph Bonneville from them when they were located across the street.  I haven't had any real issues with the shop during that time. But I agree that the shop looks like it came out of a 1970 time warp - that is because it hasn't been improved or updated since then.  (You should see the service area.     )

I bought my 2012 Zero S from Teresa and she seemed to be quite knowledgeable about the bike and how to fill out the paperwork and process the sale.  If they don't want to play your game, I can only conclude that they are worried about getting a visit from the IRS and they don't want to loose any sleep over that potential issue.

Does Monroe Motors in SF still sell Zeros?  Perhaps you could give them a call and see what they say.

[Olav]

I don't think trying to get the Federal credit for an extra battery will work.  All the IRS cares about is the date of sale, the purchase price, the brand and model and the VIN.  If you don't have all of these items listed on their form in the way that the IRS computer is programmed, the form will not work and it will be kicked back until the computer sees what it likes. If the FX 2.8 and its VIN is in their computer system, you get the rebate.  If it isn't, you don't get the rebate. Trying to get credit for an extra battery won't work, in my opinion.  But the IRS computer will always have the last laugh.

I have been dealing with Mission Motorcycles since I bought a new 1971 Triumph Bonneville from them when they were located across the street.  I haven't had any real issues with the shop during that time. But I agree that the shop looks like it came out of a 1970 time warp - that is because it hasn't been improved or updated since then.  (You should see the service area.     )

I bought my 2012 Zero S from Teresa and she seemed to be quite knowledgeable about the bike and how to fill out the paperwork and process the sale.  If they don't want to play your game, I can only conclude that they are worried about getting a visit from the IRS and they don't want to loose any sleep over that potential issue.

Does Monroe Motors in SF still sell Zeros?  Perhaps you could give them a call and see what they say.

That's right.

The FX 2.8 VIN will be fine for their computer.

Then the accessories is on a separate invoice and that will be analyze too.

No big deal.

No Games just astute observation of the rules.

[WindRider]

Olav,

Make it simple.   Go buy an FX2.8.  A few days later go back and buy the extra battery and charger.   

Do the tax stuff later with your tax advisor.   No need to get into those details with the dealer at all. 

[trikester]

I didn't apply for any incentive rebates on my e-trike even though I bought all of the drive components from Zero. The rules say the vehicle has to be a manufacturer's product (not home built). I suppose I could go through a lot of hassle and state that the motorcycle was made by Yamaha (converted to a trike by me) and the drive powertrain was made by Zero. I'd probably lose.

I guess my rebate will be selling the engine that came out of the Yamaha for $1000. 

Trikester