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[Richard230]

According to an article in my newspaper today, the California PUC is considering a regulation requiring all electrical utilities in the state to purchase more than 1.3 gigawatts of energy storage by the year 2020. This storage systems would store "green" energy for times when wind, solar and the like was not functioning due to the environment or other factors. The storage systems might consist of upper/lower water reservoir systems, flywheel systems, battery systems, or whatever else can be developed to store large amounts of energy over short periods of time. As an example, the article mentions PG&E's 4-megawatt Yerba Buena Battery Energy Storage System Pilot Project. This battery system cost $18 million and from the photo in the article looks to be about 20 feet high and 40 feet long. The system uses sodium-sulfur batteries made by NGK. They can store 4 MW of power up to about 6 hours. Naturally, the State's ratepayers will be picking up the tab and various battery storage companies, such as AES Energy Storage in Arlington, VA (which uses li-ion batteries) and other interested parties, are licking their chops over the program. Lets hope that some of the technology developed will trickle down to the transportation sector.

[protomech]

Storage batteries - like the molten salt sulfur-sodium batteries mentioned - tend to have different objectives than EV batteries. An EV battery is fine with a 10-15 year lifespan and can expect to see relatively high power discharge. Weight, volume are big limitations. Cost is definitely a consideration.

Storage batteries are all about cost-of-operation. Weight, volume do not matter. Power discharge is usually low (1/6C). 20-30 year lifespans are desirable.

Some of the EV flow batteries look pretty interesting, Cambridge Crude etc. But I think the technology flow is likely to go in the opposite direction, end-of-life vehicle batteries being repurposed for grid storage. The key - and this is usually glossed over - is whether the EOL vehicle batteries can compete with cost-of-life vs the traditional storage batteries. A near-free EV traction battery becomes rather expensive if cells fail pretty frequently.

Dispatchable energy WILL work well for providing high-power EV charging from the grid.

[NoiseBoy]

There are some worrying headlines in the UK papers this morning.  Energy prices are going up again and instead of blaming the rise in fuel prices which has a greater effect [Insert Conspiricy Theory Here] they are blaming green taxes on the energy companies to reduce carbon emissions.  There is a rebuff here but I haven't had chance to read it all the way through.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2013/oct/10/green-taxes-energy-bill-fuel-sse-price-rising

My point is that governments need to be very careful how they legislate the 'green revolution'.

[BSDThw]

Sorry I am off the Topic but NoiseBoys Lines brought up something that annoys my for a while!

The „green revolution“ was for a long time rated a small group but it seams the “big players” (energy and bank => politics) are realizing it becomes more popular and therefore dangerous for their “power”.

In Germany I can see the consequence since more than one year!

There is an enormous attempt to destroy this movement – the energy turnaround was boycotted by the politic and press with deliberately incorrect or one-sided information. (I become sick if I hear the lies of Bundesumweltminister (Federal Minister for the Environment) "Peter Altmaier")

I work in the photovoltaic area and they destroyed it in 3 month!

I am now observing what happens to the electromobility. Last information RWE and Siemens will reduce (maybe stop) building more charging stations. The reason the electromobility is to small.

Maybe some know your Miss Merkel will have 1 Million EV till 2020 – but I really believe - if it really grows they try to destroy this market too. The Tesla S battery burn is already used to plant negative seeds to the EV Market through our Press!(I know Tesla did a press information and actually the accident has proved how save it is => media use it negative )

German car lobby is to powerful and most politicians are influenced.

I always explain to people not into the topic how real world works: I have a Diesel car and could use normal (cheaper) heating oil but it is colored (and illegal) . The big problem for the  government is there is no way to “color” the current I use for my EV => a lot of tax will slipping through there fingers. - You can see there is not really a honest will to grow the EV market.

What I have seen - lots of new EV-cars are sold with “only” the Typ II plug and people are told they need a special charging box at home for the “Kraftstrom” (three-phase electric power) but this is standard in every residence (home) I spoke with the "experts" selling EV and the have no idea what "Kraftstrom" really is ! (I fear it will end in boxes with special taxed current)
The data communication at the PP and CP is nice but the basic charger in the EV works also without. For me I have to deal with the problem on the other side and have to “Trick” the charging boxes to work with my Zero.

How is it in the US the other EU or where ever all my Forum friends life.

If I vanish from the Forum maybe some big players read this Forum too.LOL

[protomech]

The US doesn't have anywhere near the fuel taxes Europe seems to favor. Some states are considering (or have already implemented) flat annual road taxes on EVs to make up for non-realized fuel road taxes. I think these are implemented poorly, but I don't really like the alternatives (GPS-based mileage trackers).

It's possible that we could see regulation where the J1772 charging stations are on a separate circuit from the regular house, for billing purposes. It would be difficult to stop someone for example plugging into a dryer outlet and bypassing this special circuit, or just hard-wiring a J1772 charging station into the regular house grid.

[Richard230]

I have been seeing some indication that Big Oil is pushing back in the Californian Legislature and with regulators against "green" transportation systems and regulations.  Apparently, they are making sure that they don't get stuck with the "bill" and are lobbying for laws that make consumers pay more (instead of them) for being "green".  I suspect that this is one of their efforts to reduce the impact of alternative energy on oil consumption - make oil and gas cheaper than the alternatives for the public. 

There was an article in the newspaper last week about CA starting up the "Hydrogen Highway" again, but this time instead of Big Oil picking up the tab, taxpayers would be holding the gas bag (which I suspect is never going to fly except with a few urban bus systems).  I don't think they have gone after EVs yet, perhaps due to Tesla's success in the state.  But I am not going to cut Big Oil any slack for doing what is right for the public and the environment.  It is all about money.

[Olav]

"In what may be California's last chance to build a "hydrogen highway," lined with thousands of high-tech vehicles emitting nothing but water vapor from their tailpipes, Gov. Jerry Brown has approved a plan to construct 100 hydrogen fueling stations across the state by 2024.

Only a year ago, the California Air Resources Board required Big Oil to pay for the new stations. But after oil companies threatened to sue, Brown agreed to a compromise in which the costs of building hydrogen stations will be shifted to car owners through existing vehicle registration fees."
http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_24294103/new-life-californias-struggling-hydrogen-highway-plan

What is the allure of Hydrogen?

[BSDThw]

Maybe I am wrong but most fuel cells I know use natural gas and a catalyst. The efficiency is <40% so it will be not a big step for our environment.

If we use hydrogen produced with solar, wind... it is different.

Using fuel cells as combined heat and power unit <CHP> stationary I see the advantage.

I am really agog with expectation how hydrogen will improve and solve all the storage and production problems.

[protomech]

If we use hydrogen produced with solar, wind... it is different.

If you mean by electrolysis, you can drive around 3 miles by directly charging an EV instead of electrolysing 1 mile worth of hydrogen. IIRC.

[Richard230]

If we use hydrogen produced with solar, wind... it is different.

If you mean by electrolysis, you can drive around 3 miles by directly charging an EV instead of electrolysing 1 mile worth of hydrogen. IIRC.

My thought too.  Hydrogen doesn't grow on trees.   

[NoiseBoy]

The fact of the matter is that of the top ten companies by revenue in the world, 6 are oil and gas companies. In the US alone the top 5 companies turn over more than 2 Trillion dollars a year. Big oil is more than 10% of US GDP. Their political sway is incredible.

Then add in that humans like convenience and before you know it future commuters will strap oxygen cylinders to their backs and drive through a borderline apocalyptic wilderness before they give up they engines.

[Richard230]

Time for another Mad Max movie.   

[protomech]

I believe you mean Mad MaX .. Zero's got the bike for him : )

[Biff]

What is the allure of Hydrogen?

That is a very good question.  I have not ever heard a single solid reason why hydrogen makes sense. Even if you produce it from renewable sources, it makes more sense to just store the energy in batteries which are about 95% efficient at storing and 95% efficient at extracting for a net efficiency of around 90%.  Hydrogen is not only difficult to store, is only 70% efficient (from what I have read) at producing, and 30% (again from my limited research) at converting back to electricity. for a net 20% energy out of what you put in. Right now most of the hydrogen we use for fuel is refined from fossil fuels (again from what I have read).

-ryan

[Richard230]

I imagine that just the energy needed to compress hydrogen into a container that is of reasonable size and keep it there for any length of time is considerable.  Plus, I recall our Public Works Department vehicles that ran on compressed natural gas during the 1970's had much of the carrying capacity (in both size and weight) of the vehicle taken up by the fuel tank.  The CNG tank would completely fill the typical 1/2 ton pickup's bed, leaving little room to actually carry a useful load.  We had most of our PW vehicles' engines fail when the gas failed to lubricate the upper end of the engine and the lower end was destroyed by a synthetic oil that had just come out called EON.  That was the last time the city used vehicles fueled by compressed gas or used synthetic oil.

During the late 1980's they tried using battery-powered 3-wheeled meter maid revenue collection vehicles and those didn't work out, either.  They would run out of juice around lunch time and leave the maid stranded somewhere in the industrial area, which required a tow back to the barn.  Now they fuel everything by gasoline, except for a few SUV's driven by the managers that say "hybrid" on the sides, which were purchased by a government "air quality improvement" grant.