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[Justin Andrews]

I'm very much hoping that 2015 will see a viable touring bike from Zero.
However would it not require around 20 > 30kW of battery power to push it up into the 150 to 200 mile range, I fear price and space might become an issue with the current level of technology.

[protomech]

20 kWh onboard battery + a slipstream fairing like Terry's Zero would give it approximately 180-200 miles of highway range.

[Richard230]

20 kWh onboard battery + a slipstream fairing like Terry's Zero would give it approximately 180-200 miles of highway range.

And would be pretty heavy.  That would be another two or three 45 pound battery modules that you would have to find somewhere to stuff.  Not an easy task. The "power tank" feature on my bike pretty well maxes out the Zero's frame and chassis.

[WindRider]

Well, it is clearly time for a huge advancement in battery tech.

Zero just needs to come out with a ZF20 battery pack that fits in the same space and with the same weight as the current ZF2.8 pack and the touring bike is a reality.

If only battery tech would march on a Moore's Law timeline all would be good.

[protomech]

I don't think it would quite max out the chassis - the ZF11.4 has 366 pounds remaining of carrying capacity, so 45 lbs x 4 = 180 would leave room for a lighter rider. But it's certainly close, far closer than Zero would likely release for production. Exceed the design weight at your own peril, as Mr. Hershner has discovered on multiple occasions.

Excluding the packaging and additional redundant electronics, the additional 2.5 kWh battery modules are only 32 pounds - see ZF8.5 vs ZF11.4. So a well-integrated 20 kWh bike would likely weigh in at around 550 pounds, plus fairing and higher powered chargers .. perhaps 600 pounds in total. This is a pretty big bike, as such bikes go .. but it would offer range competitive with most gas bikes (130 - 200 miles) and 2C DC charge rates would allow for convenient travel.

Other comparison points:

* Brutus V2 Rocket, three battery configurations 12.8 kWh, 17.8 kWh, 21.7 kWh. Weight listed at 545 pounds, unclear what size configuration it refers to.
* Mission R, three battery configurations 12 kWh, 15 kWh, 17 kWh. Weight listed at 490, 510, 540 pounds respectively.

[NoiseBoy]

We just need those batteries we have been promised for years with 4 x the density.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it is clearly time for a huge advancement in battery tech.

Zero just needs to come out with a ZF20 battery pack that fits in the same space and with the same weight as the current ZF2.8 pack and the touring bike is a reality.

If only battery tech would march on a Moore's Law timeline all would be good.

That would be a lithium-air battery then... 

We just need those batteries we have been promised for years with 4 x the density.

Right now I'd be happy with 2x density.

[protomech]

Even without large increases in density, battery technology is "good enough" now to support touring ranges comparable to or superior to most gas bikes, and high charging power with relatively low cell charge rates .. but only in an expensive, heavy bike.

Large increases in density and reductions in cost ARE required for large batteries in a relatively inexpensive small bike. Keep in mind that "small" in a gas bike is still pretty large for Zero: a CBR250R weighs ~360 pounds with a full tank, a CBR500R weighs ~430 pounds with a full tank.

Zero uses pretty dense batteries now, ~170 Wh/kg. However, a 15 kWh Tesla-style battery using denser cylindrical cells would likely weigh around 200 pounds, about the same as Zero's 10 kWh ZF11.4 battery. Tesla bulk charges their batteries at approximately 2C, so this battery could accept a 30 kW bulk charge rate from DC QC. It's possible that this charge rate would require additional cooling, which would increase weight.

So this gives us a 400 pound 15 kWh bike with existing technology, 100 miles of highway range or 200 miles of city range, and it could accept an 80% charge (80 miles) in 30 minutes. Tesla's cost for assembled packs are rumored to be in the $250-300/kWh range, so our pack would cost around $4500.

Faster and lighter than a CBR500R, decent highway range, and relatively quick charge times ... with existing technology. A 150 mile highway trip would take 2 hours to ride, 30 minutes to charge midway through .. that seems pretty reasonable to me.

None of those requires new technology, only the will and financial commitment to make it happen.

[Richard230]

Well, Tesla will be manufacturing lots of U.S. made batteries in the next few years.  Maybe they will be willing to share a few with the electric motorcycle industry.   

[MichaelJ]

I have a meeting tomorrow with AeroVironment, which supports the voltage but has another issue we are looking to confirm.

How did the meeting with AeroVironment go, Aaron?

If the AV DCFC stations deployed in my area are compatible, then that'll be a big relief and strong incentive to order a bike with the Power Tank and CHAdeMO included.

If that falls through, it's nice to know that in those areas where CHAdeMO isn't as widely available, a stock quick-charger accessory or two, or an Elcon 2500W charger or two are solutions are trusted by this community.

However, the dual-Elcon setup adds $700 to the price ($1,000 x 2 Elcon 2500W + $500 for the J1772 cable) relative to $1,800 for the CHAdeMO, adds 30 pounds to the weight, charges ~20 minutes slower than the CHAdeMO (1.5 hours vs. 1.8 hours), and possibly voids the warranty, so there is a lot to think about.

--
Thanks,
Michael

[protomech]

It's slightly worse than that.

http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638094.htm

Each TCCH-96-22 can bulk charge at 22A DC. This compares favorably to the 1.3 kW onboard charger array which can bulk charge at 12 A DC, and if all 3 chargers were able to be slaved together then you should be able to bulk charge at 56 A DC from a 30 A AC J1772 EVSE. A 50% charge would take 54 minutes with all 3 chargers, or 68 minutes with only the Elcon chargers.

CHAdeMO can provide up to 125 A DC, though it appears Zero limits the battery to a 1C charge. A 50% charge would take 30 minutes.

[Pprior]

No offense guys but I do t want to see zeros taking 4 hours to charge hogging tesla stations. As someone with a tesla order being done I want access to charging as it was designed--fast. If the bike conformed to tesla charging standard it would probably take 15 min to fully charge

[protomech]

We're talking here about CHAdeMO, which is a fast DC charger similar to Tesla's Supercharger but not the same.

Currently only Tesla vehicles can access the Supercharger and I fully expect Tesla to tightly manage access to this network. IF Tesla opens up the Supercharger to other vehicles, I expect they will require that either the vehicles can charge as quickly as Tesla Model S in terms of miles per hour (300+ miles charged/hour: for motorcycles, this is likely to be in the 40-50 kW charge power range), or that they are able to accept the maximum station charge power for bulk charging (imagine a Tesla truck or a municipal bus).

I also expect the Model E to charge at 300+ miles per hour. If it uses 10% less highway power than the Model S at a given speed, then it will need to accept approximately a 120 kW bulk charge, or 3C on a 40 kWh pack.

This will minimize the time used per vehicle at the station, minimize contention for limited charging resources, and minimize the infrastructure that Tesla needs to deploy and support.

I also see Tesla only deploying stations in ways that make sense for their vehicles, which to date have consistently have had the largest battery packs and longest EV range available. This means that stations will be spaced for convenient Tesla usage; until Zero and other companies have vehicles with 150+ miles of highway range, stations spaced 100+ miles apart will be of only limited utility.

Fear not about hordes of Zero bikes occupying the Supercharger stations. The primary concern will be what happens when usage increases from 30k Model S vehicles to Model E vehicles being produced at the rate of 500k/year ... but there are certainly worse problems to have.

[oobflyer]

The connectors are very different. I predict an underground/black market adapter industry ;-)