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Author Topic: Holding out hope  (Read 12050 times)

MVetter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2023, 10:07:09 AM »

I am following up based on the criteria you set. You said there would be a third party review of the production-locked bike. This is piece of writing in question which fails to be a review. It doesn't matter because in the end the article itself is your defining 'make or break' point. This are the goal posts you set and I refuse to see them moved further.

Did this MAKE

or

Did this BREAK

You set the terms. Do you have the decency to fulfill them and answer?
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NEW2elec

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2023, 07:45:41 PM »

Wow you really hate Jay don't you?

My definition of "break" is the death of the company.  Shut it down, file the paperwork, no more Damon Motorcycles.

While "make" is going forward and building some bikes then gaining traction and becoming a big player in the market.

The results of the review will take a little time and will depend on if there is more to come fairly soon or if you hear crickets for the next few months.  I wanted to see a road test but that didn't happen.  The company doesn't hinge on me and my expectations though.  Some people just wanted a track toy all along so for that they may be happy with the progress.

They clearly say they need more money to go into production.  Will they get it?  That's where they are now and if they have make enough progress to get more money from an interested party is anyone's guess.

Purely my "guess" because I know you want one, is a buy out or merger is the best chance of getting bikes to market.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2023, 08:09:03 PM »

Now on the other front, it's your turn.  We had two disagreements.  One was is Damon going to work as a company but the other was can they make a bike with (or near) there claimed specs, at all.

Are you willing to admit the bike, though not production, is fairly impressive so far?  I saw the bench test of the motor with external power put out 248HP.  We all see that thing power wheelie down the track.  My only concern there is was that bike fully loaded with cells or was it a 10 or 15kWh setup to make it lighter?

It's built almost the exact same way as the Ducati ebike so there is clearly success in that 2170 horizontal stack approach which you felt pouch cells were the way to go.

So you're in the lead with the company might fail side, but I'm feeling good on the bike's setup as a product is the better approach part of the argument.
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MVetter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2023, 09:41:58 PM »

A couple months ago you made a statement that by July and after a 3rd-party review it would be a make or break moment. The appointed time comes and goes with accompanying media. I ask you to follow up on your statement.

You become so defensive that your opening line is accusational and refers to someone I didn't even mention in my post and then proceed to dance around and give a non-answer.

After that, having utterly failed to fulfill your end of the bargain, you insist I answer some of your questions. Just want to clarify that's what's going on here, yes? Confirm that and I can move forward.
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Specter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2023, 01:01:46 AM »

Like two dogs, running in circles, sniffing each other's asses, deciding which one hunches first.

At this point, MY OPINION, if they do not have the venture capital to put bikes out, after all the huff and puff they did, it looks like it's pretty much a done deal for them.  If they have not sucked anyone else into giving them the 'cash' they need, then it's extremely unlikely it's going to happen at all now.

Even though they are currently idle, they STILL have employees to pay, rent to pay, ... that stuff, so the bills are climbing, and nothing is coming in, unless they want to bombard PooTube with tons of really neat track vids and try to survive on the page clicks from that.

Even IF they resorted to just giving a few wizz boys a neat new track toy, they havent even really don't that yet either, so, where's the life support at this point?

BTW  bench mounting a motor and HP testing it, is misleading at best .vs. real world.

Did they set it up on one of the actual batteries it's going to run on, or a power supply?   Batteries can sag badly, power supplies, if it's hefty enough, not so much.  Throw a few farads on the head end and you won't even have to worry about ripple much either even with hundreds of amps.

Aaron
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NEW2elec

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2023, 01:03:30 AM »

You see I can't tell when you are being joking or when you are taking things way too seriously.  That's why I offered to talk to you on the phone if you really cared about what I thought or why I felt this or that would happen. 

This is the game:
COMPANIES NEED MONEY TO MAKE PRODUCTS.
INVESTORS WANT TO KNOW THAT THE PRODUCT THAT GETS MADE IS WANTED BY CONSUMERS.
WHEN A COMPANY SAYS THEY WANT TO MAKE A 200 MILE RANGE 200HP AND 200MPH BIKE.  AS A CONSUMER YOU SAY YES!!!
IF COMPANY "A" CAN'T MAKE IT MAYBE COMPANY "B" CAN OR "C" OR "D" BUT YOU MAKE SURE THE MONEY GUYS KNOW YOU WANT THAT KIND OF BIKE OR YOU WILL NEVER EVER GET IT. 

It costs you nothing to post that is what you want, hell you can say that you don't know if they can pull it off or not but you publicly support the effort.  Period.

You've call Jay a liar and said he was full of shit and so on.  I don't care if you like him or not.  You two can enter the thunder dome for all I care. 
As of right now Damon is still alive and still posts it plans to build bikes.  So it's not "broken" so he review must have "made" them huh?

There you go that's the answer to that question.

Now you jumped all over how using 2170 cells was so stupid and pouch cells were the way to go when Damon first announced that was their approch to the bike.
That Ducati is setup so damn similar it isn't even funny but you didn't say anything bad about Ducati.
Do you want to now admit you were wrong about that? 
That question has a clear answer and it was 2170 cells at least put out better power.  Will they last long term is really the only question there.

Damon the company needs money.  Use your crystal ball and say if they get it or not.  I'll admit I don't know what will happen over the next year and either way I'm fine.

It's not that serious man relax.
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Specter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2023, 01:30:52 AM »

Unless they make some serious dope deals somewhere, I can't see the money coming in. I mean why would it, if it hasn't over the past year or so?  What has drastically changed from then to now that would make someone say, oh awesome, here's some money?

As far as cell tech, not getting into that mess, seen too much happen  both ways to take sides there.  Pouches / Prismatic, if you can keep them cool and keep the power density up, go for it.  Engineering wise, on paper, a pouch (read polygonal shape) ie 90 degree angles, ie NOT circular, makes much more sense because there is a lot less wasted space than between the circles.   But ON that note too, if it needs cooling... send the cooling down those wasted space channels between the circles, you already reserved the real estate, now put it to use!

I think we pretty much are about at the end of the current tech for battery chemistry and motor design until someone comes out with a new chemistry with better power stats. You are not going to squeeze much more out of the current chem.   Motor design you can fiddle and fuddle with a bit, but ultimately they have not changed very much over the past 100 years.  Make them dense to run more power thru them, IF you can keep them cool.  Right now, use the exotics in the laminations for more flux density, but ultimately... like any power transformer, which a motor, really at it's core, is a rotating transformer with it's secondary shorted out, once you have saturated the core, improvements come screeching to a halt.  No higher voltage is NOT going to help once you saturated the flux at the core, all that does is tend to make ringing and eventually kaboom !

Still, I will say, yah Id love to see a 200 MPH e bike.  Don't care what the HP is if it can make that speed and do it quickly.

As for torque, well once you popped the wheelie, MORE torgue really is moot at that point,  once you turned your tires into a burning ring of fire,  more torque is really moot at that point.  To get you from 140 to 180 in a few seconds, now you need torque, but all this fuss about how fast a bike can 'theoretically' go from 0 to 60.  Mostly hype.  How many can you actually Do that as is out of the box, and actually be able to DO it without messing with tire pressures, balancing and all kinds of other crap because the bike wants so stand on end it's so powerful?  0 to 60 in 1.4 seconds IF you ever figured out a way to hold on.... ok whatever.  A car, all those G forces are pushing you snugly into your seat, you are still in control, a bike they are trying to rip you off the bike... a bit of a problem there.

Your turn :D

Aaron
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Richard230

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2023, 02:49:00 AM »

If I was Damon I don't think I would want to borrow any money from Harley Davidson.  ::)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Specter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2023, 04:59:56 AM »

Does Harley even have the money to hand out?  From what I heard, they are not doing super well themselves.  Unless they are trying to get the rights from the bike that Harley spun off so they have a working model?

Aaron
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Richard230

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2023, 06:40:07 AM »

Does Harley even have the money to hand out?  From what I heard, they are not doing super well themselves.  Unless they are trying to get the rights from the bike that Harley spun off so they have a working model?

Aaron

That is what I was think of. Recalling what they did to Alta Motors when they invested in the company.  >:(
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

MVetter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2023, 07:10:57 AM »

Now you jumped all over how using 2170 cells was so stupid and pouch cells were the way to go when Damon first announced that was their approch to the bike.
That Ducati is setup so damn similar it isn't even funny but you didn't say anything bad about Ducati.
Do you want to now admit you were wrong about that? 
That question has a clear answer and it was 2170 cells at least put out better power.  Will they last long term is really the only question there.

They are stupid. Pouch cells are clearly a better application. I don't really care necessarily what Ducati is doing because they're not making anything for consumers or the public. Sort of like I don't really care what they use in the Voxan Wattman land speed record bikes. It bears little relevance to the market. As to why I harp on 21700s, I asked the smartest battery person in the industry I know what the theoretical maximum stack efficiency of a 21700 is:

Quote
The staggered fill packing for cylinders has a theoretical maximum of 81% fill factor assuming all are touching on all adjacent faces. You need a minimum of 1.3mm spacing for LV pack between cells, this costs ~8% packaging volume, now you're at 73%.  Now you need your cell interconnect volume, being single sided wire bonded is the smallest packaging that's mass production friendly, it's 8mm total height above the cell when you're awesome at keeping it all tight. This makes it 78mm vs 70mm for another 89% multiplier to our above 73% value for a total packaging volumetric efficiency of 65% assuming you have no cooling system and just did optimization for energy storage while still passing propagation and being production mfg capable.

You are losing 35% of available space by using 21700s in a perfectly built configuration. The stack efficiency of pouches is way higher than that and have higher C rates for both charge and discharge.
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Specter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2023, 06:41:56 PM »

C rates is only a part of the quality formula.   Higher C rates generally mean fewer cycles.  How many cycles can they take will be a BIG question to answer.  Then there's always the problem of thermal runaway, some chemistries and form factors just have more issues with that than others.

Aaron
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MVetter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2023, 07:52:45 PM »

They don’t care about cycle count for a race bike. They’re gonna scrap the packs each season.

Edit- this is me referring to Ducati
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NEW2elec

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2023, 09:58:38 AM »

Meanwhile a bike using 2170 cells:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6W97B1KHDko
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MVetter

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Re: Holding out hope
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2023, 12:41:07 PM »

Just think how much better it would be with pouches. Mmmm.
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