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[Motoproponent]

On Saturday December 2nd, I tried to ride 1000 miles in 24 hours on my Experia. Here's what I learned.

Thermal management is the key. Having experienced failure after failure through the summer I really thought the ambient temperature was the main variable I needed to manage. Like I was able to get 430 or 460 miles in 12 hours with ambient temps in the 80's and 90's (Fahrenheit), so it made sense that if I rode when it was cooler I might be able to optimize and make it to 500 miles in 12 hours. If I could hit that benchmark, then 1000 miles in 24 hours was feasible. Well, even riding in ambient temps in the high 40's the battery was still heat throttling. At the 12 hour mark I was 50 miles and a full charge away from 500 miles and by then the bike was charging at 12kw. When I did hit 500 miles I was 2 hours behind the pace and falling further back each charge stop.

For all my efforts to optimize the ride (weight, tucking, diligently watching the consumption, lowering the charge current to minimize heat) I was barely farther/faster than when I just rode the bike for the first time totally unaware of any of these optimization techniques.

Every ride, with this goal of getting to the SS1000, was basically the same. The first charge stop would be relatively short, like less than 20 minutes, at greater than 20kw. If the temps were lower than 70 degrees then the battery would be green when I left that stop. 100% of the time the second charge stop would turn the battery yellow and by the time I was at 80% the charge rate would be below 14kw. It would take 30-50 miles of riding at 140wh/m or less to get the battery to indicate green again (again depending on ambient temps). The next charge stop would start heat throttling immediately usually starting around 17kw and quickly getting down to 12, 11, or even 9 kw. The slowest charging I have seen on a third (or subsequent) charge was 6kw with the ambient temps above 100 degrees.

Basically, once the battery heats up the difference between the pack temp and the air temp doesn't have as much of an impact on how much heat dissipates or how quickly. Yes, there is some difference but not enough to be impactful if your planning on doing 13 charge stops in 24 hours.

The only exception I've observed was coming out of southern Washington State, through Oregon in a generally southwest direction towards the coast highway. Air temps were mid to low 60's, it was generally down hill and slower backroads and there was heavy fog/light mist. I was able to get two charge stops in a row with the charge rate above 20kw and still had a green battery at the end of the charge session. I wasn't riding with any intent other than to ride so I didn't take note of the consumption. It wasn't until I had so many failures getting more than one 20kw charge session that it even stuck out as noteworthy. I haven't noticed this same increased cooling capacity in rain, only fog and mist and only that one time.

Honestly, I think someone can do a SS1000 on an Energica. I dont know if me on this Experia is that someone though. I don't think the range or comfort are the limitations preventing electrics from doing serious LD rides. It's being able to keep the charge speeds fast enough. Like above your KWH per 100 miles. If you can ride at 12kwh per 100 miles you have to keep the charge speed above 12kw. I average 14kwh per 100 miles so as soon as the charge rate goes below 14kw, I start falling behind.

I've put 8100 miles on my Experia (#94) in 5 months. I've done 1 and a half attempts at a Saddle Sore 1000

Ask me anything.

**except speculation** I'll tell what I've done, or experienced but don't ask would would happen if....or could I have....or why didn't I...

[Pard]

Awesome experimentation!

[Motoproponent]

If there was one thing I would ask for from Energica (besides some hardware solution for better pack cooling) it would be to have the battery temp indicated with a number and publish what the throttling profile is based on those numbers. Also, for long distance travel, making the pack imbalance accessible in the menu somewhere. If I'm on a multiday trip knowing when to prioritize an AC Charge with a cell balancing cycle, or two, would help me maintain the pack. I know when the pack starts to get imbalanced the threshold for limp mode gets to be a higher and higher SOC.

The green, for example is actually a gradient of green. Just turned green 10 miles ago versus getting up in the morning and starting out with a green battery....is two different greens. I would like to see if turning the bike off for 10 minutes had an effect of the pack temp versus riding with the airflow cooling the pack while generating heat from the load of the motor propelling the bike forward.

Being able to have a more granular feedback of what changes to the riding conditions increase heat dissipation or decrease heat generation would go a long way towards helping to create real techniques to cover distances.

 

[ultrarnr]

I think if you want to do a SS1000 on an Energica you have to find an Eva 107. Yes the battery pack is smaller than current Experia's or Ribella's. But the Eva 107 had air vents in the center of the battery pack which made a big difference in cooling the battery when you were doing multiple fast charges. Fast charging was a lot faster just because you didn't have the heat build-up and the slow down in charging speed that you have with current models.

[MVetter]

2020 Ego. The tucking makes a difference with the fairings.

[Specter]

Rain and mist are not going to help cooling much if any.  the battery is AIR cooled, if it's misty out, the humidity is already presumably close to 100 percent, and any evaporative cooling you might get with the mist just is not there.

Current = Heat... Period.

OOh I have to hump a fast charge on the battery!!,  that is fast heating the battery as well.  Regulate your charging, ie decrease it.  Ok it an do 20 KW of charge, ok fine you are adding more heat than can dissipate in the charge cycle time so it sits there in the pot waiting to dissipate off.  Instead of letting it charge at 20 kw if it can, reduce it to say 14 KW, which is still above the 12 of your average consumption rate, that shaves a tiny bit of time off, (is a shit ton better than a 9 or 10 kw rate), and shaves a LOT of heat off (yes, in theory you are putting the same watt/heat into the battery BUT since you are taking longer, it has longer to dissipate out)

This would leave less room for error in driving times etc but might manage the battery better and get it.

Also a box fan, they  make small ass ones that run off USB power, I use one on my PC's when I cryptomine to help keep the gpu's cooler, it works WONDERS.  when charging put this fan up  blowing on the battery, that way you are actively removing the heat from the battery, by creating an airflow rather than just convective.  When on the road your speed creates this, when parked, YOU need to create this.

try to go deeper cycle too  when you can  say 90 -10  that way you are optimizing the charge stop  better, and even when the battery starts ticking granny mode below 20, you should still be able to charge at that 14 kw. 

On balancing, I hvae seen my bike go into 'balance' mode as low as 80 percent, but a stop / immediate restart might undo this and let you get a few more percent before it does this again. 

For the multi day trip question,  if you are doing multi day YES absolutely balance your battery, but do it at night when you are snoozing!!
Fast top your battery off, and when you goto sleep for the night, plug the thing in and let it set overnight on AC.  The battery will charge, then the balance will be slower, thus more thorough, and since you are snoozing, leave it charge overnight, that way every few hours, it checks the battery status and if it's down a tad, it'll 'top it off' ie re balance for the little bit of settling that may have happened.  When you wake up in the morning yur battery should be fully topped, and balanced very well for maximum power density for your next days riding.

now I have a few ?'s

what was your average speed?
Ive done 21 hour stints in my youth, mainly navy going from station to station moves etc,  NOT fun,  about the 10-12 hour mark you just turn into a zombie.  What did you use to keep awake, alert?   Yes coffee comes to mind, but so does peeing, unless you are one of those cath boys

I would think 60 MPH would be a good speed, that gives you 500 mph in 8 hours, with 4 for recharge,  so do 120 miles in 2 hours, then take an hour to recharge and off you go, well slightly less than an hour but close.  That's also a speed that isn't too hard on the battery yet but man, hunching for that long, to reduce drag and consumption, umm sorry, not happening here, my back would be wrecked permanently after that.  I would also say that 60 also a speed where wind drag is not TOO horrible yet.

Maybe a better windshield to direct the air up/over  or around you more might facilitate this too, so you use less power and get more bang for your buck? 

Id absolutely LOVE to try one of these but unfortunately we don't have the infrastructure down here in florida I don't believe to find fast chargers where you'd need them.  Maybe when tesla comes online with his universal charging for everyone, but currently, don't think its possible without having someone follow me in my pickup truck, with my 30 KW inverter / DC Fast charger and 60 KW/hr battery pack. to do a mobile charge port when there is a dead zone for available fast chargers.

Aaron

[Motoproponent]

2020 Ego. The tucking makes a difference with the fairings.
[/quote

I kind of agree. Somebody lighter and younger than me.

Ill definitely do.more testing when i go on long rides. Ill test slower speeds, longer legs, what kind of second and third charge stop that makes.

@specter i was going between 65 and 67 mph.

[Commodore]

Great analysis - very useful.  Thanks!

I worked backwards from Aaron:  ~42 mph for 24 hr is 1K miles; assuming 4 hr riding is 168 miles (a safe range I have so far experienced).  1K / 168 is six charges.  Subtract 6 hours for 6 charges now means 18 hour of riding at ~56 mph to get to 1K.  Not sure this would have helped with battery heat.

Were you fully loaded with bags?

[Specter]

the less amps you can pull from the battery the better it is heat wise.  well, same goes for putting them into it as well.
if you can do a 56 mph that's a nice speed, bike should be barely breaking a sweat, and your wind resistance, even sitting upright should not be that terrible.  At 110+ MPH the difference between a good hunch and sitting straight up can add a good 10 kw to your current draw.

probably about 35 to 40 mph is where it starts really making a difference when wind drag against the upright rider starts kicking in hard.  Leaning over is helpful but oh lord help you being hunched for 12 hours,  ugh!!  The 20 minute stint on the track is bad enough!  I bet even the younger kids get uncomfortable in the trackday crouch for hours.

also at 55 to 60, you should easily get 130 miles or so on a Ribelle full charge.  I would assume the other bikes would be similar.

I've hot shotted mine a few times, running hard on the interstate, followed by a fast charge at 60 amps / 18 kw, battery yellow, right back out and hammering it again, and have not seen any degradation or derating due to heat.  Temp was mid 90s probably 100's when you consider the heat baking off the black pavement.  Maybe I didn't push it enough to trip the limiters.

One thing I have also noted on my bike, I have had the motor / inverter hot enough that you really did not want to touch it, it'd burn, but the battery, touching it you really did not feel any heat.  It was warm but not hot.  Then again, that is not any clue to what the core temp of that battery was at.

Any idea what battery temperature you need to be at to start limiting charging current, or limiting power out when running?

Aaron

[Motoproponent]

Were you fully loaded with bags?

No. I had one of the side cases in the topcase position and a small tail bag. When It got really cold I put Hippo Hands over the handguards. I was still able to keep the consumption around 140 wh/m even with all the "drag".

Honestly elevation gain and headwind had a greater impact on my consumption than anything else.

I did seem to notice that running the heated grips and heated gear upped the consumption by about 20 wh/m. I say "seem to notice" because I would notice the consumption go up when I turned them on, and it seemed to drop by the same amount when I turned them off again, but there were times when I left them on and noticed I was still getting my usual 140wh/m after a few miles down the road with them on. I don't know enough about physics to know if the gear would draw more when it's heating "cold" elements and then use less to keep them hot....but thats what it looked like.

[Specter]

In theory yes it would draw more cold than hot but only a few watts.  If it was 20 watts of power burning when hot it may take 21 or 22 cold.  Also the cold to hot time to change over would be maybe a minute? at super tops?

Aaron

[SwampNut]

Grips on full power use 30w and a jacket 50-70w.  That's basically nothing, and it makes no sense to have it change mileage.  Let's say you had max power on both, 100w, so in an hour, you've consumed 100 watt-hours from your battery that has 22,500 watt-hours.  At 60 MPH, your watt hours per mile would be 1.7.  Some controllers are just variable heat, and some have a thermostat.