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[Richard230]

Here is a link to a short article regarding the "California Edition" of the Verge TS Pro, which was just introduced at the 2024 LA Auto Show. The company claims 1000 Nm torque, a top speed of 124 mph, a 0-60 mph acceleration of 3.5 seconds, a range of 217 miles, and a recharge time of only 35 minutes: https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/news/verge-motorcycles-unveils-the-california-edition-at-la-auto-show-44596726

[SwampNut]

These numbers don't add up.  My Tesla 3 long range will do that acceleration in 3.7, and only claims around 900nM but weighs 4050 pounds.  Its top speed is software-limited to 145.  So this 450-ish pound bike has more torque but the same acceleration? 

[Richard230]

These numbers don't add up.  My Tesla 3 long range will do that acceleration in 3.7, and only claims around 900nM but weighs 4050 pounds.  Its top speed is software-limited to 145.  So this 450-ish pound bike has more torque but the same acceleration?

So what else is new with designer startup electric motorcycle claims? 

[shayan]

These numbers don't add up.  My Tesla 3 long range will do that acceleration in 3.7, and only claims around 900nM but weighs 4050 pounds.  Its top speed is software-limited to 145.  So this 450-ish pound bike has more torque but the same acceleration?

Is the 900NM at the wheel?

[Richard230]

These numbers don't add up.  My Tesla 3 long range will do that acceleration in 3.7, and only claims around 900nM but weighs 4050 pounds.  Its top speed is software-limited to 145.  So this 450-ish pound bike has more torque but the same acceleration?

Is the 900NM at the wheel?

No doubt that is a secret. The article didn't say where the 1000 Nm was measured.   

[TheRan]

The Verge torque is at the wheel, because that's where the motor is. Tesla torque, and pretty much every other vehicle EV or ICE, is at the motor. For comparison a DSR/X is 936Nm at the wheel, you'd get that up to 1030 if you swapped for the 20 tooth sprocket off a new DS (assuming it fit on the motor).

Interestingly an Ego/Eva RS comes out to 630 at the wheel, Energica claims 900 at the wheel for the Experia but multiplying the 115 at the motor by the 3.25 gearing gives 373. I know the wheel size also affects the torque so my calculations just ignore that and assume all the bikes have the same size wheel and I don't know the maths to go from torque on a tiny shaft to a much larger diameter tyre. But, if Energica are using a multiplication factor of 2.4 (and assuming Verge does too) then the DSR/X then becomes 2246Nm at the wheel and 1512 for the RS's.

[princec]

By the time torque is at the rear wheel it's probably more helpful to think of it as thrust, as that's ultimately what makes you go forward.
1000lbs of thrust is achievable on most large bikes, so nothing unexpected there, and the limiting factor as usual is very likely to be wheelspin and/or wheelies. The numbers sound about right but don't tell really the whole story as it certainly won't be making 1000lbs of thrust at 100mph, which is why we also generally want to look at the power figure.

The most interesting aspect of the bike is the 2C charging, which is an industry first.

The range is of course simply an outright bullshit as we all know that bikes on ordinary roads at ordinary speeds get about 8 miles out of 1kWh give or take and until they start putting dustbin fairings on them or making them into streamliners it ain't going to get any better.

Cas

[flynnstig82r]

I'm pretty sure the 13.4 kWh Energicas could do at least 2C if they didn't hit thermal limits. My 2020 SS9 had a useable pack capacity somewhere in the 10 kWh range IIRC and could charge at up to 75A / 23 kW.

[Demoni]

The Verge torque is at the wheel, because that's where the motor is. Tesla torque, and pretty much every other vehicle EV or ICE, is at the motor. For comparison a DSR/X is 936Nm at the wheel, you'd get that up to 1030 if you swapped for the 20 tooth sprocket off a new DS (assuming it fit on the motor).

Interestingly an Ego/Eva RS comes out to 630 at the wheel, Energica claims 900 at the wheel for the Experia but multiplying the 115 at the motor by the 3.25 gearing gives 373. I know the wheel size also affects the torque so my calculations just ignore that and assume all the bikes have the same size wheel and I don't know the maths to go from torque on a tiny shaft to a much larger diameter tyre. But, if Energica are using a multiplication factor of 2.4 (and assuming Verge does too) then the DSR/X then becomes 2246Nm at the wheel and 1512 for the RS's.

You also need to take into account any gearing reduction inside the motor if you are trying to calculate rear wheel torque. Zero runs the front drive pully directly off the motor output, where as Energica uses additional reduction gears before the pinion shaft and final drive ratio.

Where are you pulling the data for Energica wheel torque from? These are the figures from the webpage:
EGO & EVA - 222 Nm torque / 164 lb-ft – 1187 Nm / 875 lb. ft at wheel
EsseEsse 9 - 207 Nm / 153 lb. ft – 1107 Nm / 816 lb. ft at wheel
Experia - 115 Nm / 85 ft lb. – 900 Nm / 664 ft lb. at wheel

Although the claims of the Verge providing 1000Nm of torque are accurate it's frustrating. News articles always focus on how that number is "so much bigger" without understanding why.

The most interesting aspect of the bike is the 2C charging, which is an industry first.

Lightning has demonstrated they can build a pack capable of 4C charging. I view that as more of a technology demonstrator vs. a production ready offering.

The max charge rate of a battery pack comes down to the capabilities of the cells used. You need to take into account the thermal limitations of the cells and the number of charge cycles before a noticeable reduction in capacity occurs. If you look at the data sheets for cells with super high charge rates the cycle life is normally 1/5th that of cells charged at 1C.

Would you rather have a motorcycle that charges at 2C but will loose 20% of the packs total capacity in 20k miles or one that charges at 1C that can do 100k before you see the same drop in capacity?

[TheRan]

Ah yes, I forget the Energicas have a gearbox. When I was looking at the specs the RS models only listed the motor torque, where as the Experia had both the motor and the rear wheel torque.