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[Richard230]

Honda apparently has been working on developing a hybrid gas/electric motorcycle with two electric motors according to this article. It looks way too complicated to me. https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/honda-is-developing-a-hybrid-motorcycle-with-two-electric-motors-44592382

[Specter]

I think it was the workhorse, that was going to do this.  It is motor driven but had an ice to drive a generator to charge batteries, provide traction power when the battery was not enough etc.  It's a concept that yes is strange but, can kind of bring the best of both worlds.  use electric, when the battery gets low, run the engine to charge it, / power the vehicle.  the motors of course giving the instant full power and torque advantage too.  Being the engine really only has ONE purpose, run a generator they can basically fine tune it to the optimum speed to drive the generator to make it pretty efficient.

Aaron

[Richard230]

But how do you get all of that stuff, including a gas tank and all of the engine hardware into just a motorcycle chassis?

[TheRan]

If there's going to be a hybrid bike it won't be electric with a gas range extender, like a Chevy Volt or BMW i3, it'll be a gas bike with an electric motor for torque fill like a McLaren P1. Basically it'll have a beefed up starter motor that can run for an extended period and a tiny battery, like a couple kilowatts. Electric only propulsion will be very short range, for reversing, and moving the bike about when walking beside it.

[Specter]

You don't need a 20 kilowatt hour battery, can probably get away with a 5 kw with a very high C rate because the engine / generator is going to be providing the electricity too.  The only reason for such a huge battery is due to range, which is solved by the gen set,  so the battery will hump you up to speed and fast, then 5 minutes later when its running down the engine kicks in to run the generator to give you the power.   Im assuming here that is.

Aaron

[TheRan]

If you want to run the bike off just an electric motor then it needs to be a big one, and even a 5kW/h battery is going to be pretty big. So essentially we're talking about something like an FXS with a single 3.6kW/h battery and then you still need to find room for a gas tank and generator. Those can only be made so small.

[princec]

I can't quite see the point... it suffers all the same problems as hybrid cars, namely being exactly twice as complex and expensive, and at the end of the day, still destroying the planet. AND being banned in the EU in a few years anyway.

Also... I wonder why the lessons of the turbo years in the 80s have been forgotten already. Which is of course, loads more complexity and expense achieving more or less exactly the same effect as just making the engine a bit bigger. What is the point of torque fill in a 125cc engine when you can just put a 250cc engine in instead?

It's all so farcical.

Cas

[Specter]

still destroying the planet     
Here we go again...

Just because the smoke is not coming out of YOUR stack, it's still being put out there and still "Destroying    " the planet.

What about the destruction to make the battery for your planet saving batteries?  What about the coal plants oil plants gas plants to make the electricity to charge it for you?  These nimby nuts really need to get a clue.  Even nukes, need to get rid of waste, which will "destroy the planet" .  Solar panels take a lot of energy to produce, and contain a lot of toxic materials, and there really are NO real good ways to recycle them yet either.... it costs too much... so landfill it is, but since it's buried, it's not really destroying the planet now is it, I mean we can't see it so it's all good right?

Besides, no matter how destructive mankind likes to pretend he / she is  nothing we do will beat one blast from a moderate volcano going off, which is happening right now I believe if I am correct.

That is a valid overall point though, why make things more complicated, with twice the crap to break, to have to be landfilled a few years down the road.   I have not done the math but would presume that maybe they are a bit more efficient just having an MG set, because when you are at a light or stuck in traffic as an example, you are not sitting there with the engine just idling, burning fuel for no reason, and it's only being used when needed with electric.

Workhorse, what ever DID happen to them anyways?  They looked promising and just fell off the map it seems, did they not get financing, anyone know what the story is on them?

Aaron

[princec]

The batteries really don't involve the destruction of the entire biosphere though do they. And all my electricity comes from wind and sun. With just a bit of a half-hearted attempt the manufacturing facilities that assemble things could be run off of the same sources of electricity. Whatabouting isn't going to change anything, actually doing something is.*

Cas

* We are all fucked anyway, it's far too late to stop it now, but whatevs

[Specter]

since we are all screwed anyways, why even worry at all.
just ride until you die,  if it's too stressful you can just cross the centerline and speed up the latter process.

Aaron

[princec]

I've got kids

Cas

[Stonewolf]

Geez, this thread went to a dark place, anyway.

It probably makes sense from Honda's perspective to try this but I don't think it ultimately serves any purpose as I don't think the market for it exists or will exist in future. My thoughts on it can basicly be summed up as "look what they have to do to mimic even a fraction of our power". It's overengineering without any real practical foundation for doing it other than pretending to still be petrol powered.

[Specter]

A few manu's tried this on vehicles.  Their claim was a MG set was more efficient to run a diesel engine powering the generator because it was constant speed to the genny to put into a battery and the general characteristics of an electric motor made it more efficient somehow.  I can absolutely understand the no shifting part, and no power bands, and instant torque but still.. anytime you convert 'energy' in any way shape or form you lose some of it via non useable by your app... forms.  ie heat, light, whatever..

I think it is so people can pretend they are 'green' by charging occasionally at home, but when on the road and range anxiety kicks in, they can still 'ICE Slum' it, and use petrol to get to the safety of their little e caves.

The way I see it, either Be ICE or Electric, both is just more crap to break down with no clear benefits anywhere.  Well, there is one exception that comes to mind.  Locomotive Trains.. it's a big diesel generator and the actual tractor motors are electric.

Aaron

[Fran K]

A few manu's tried this on vehicles.  Their claim was a MG set was more efficient to run a diesel engine powering the generator because it was constant speed to the genny to put into a battery and the general characteristics of an electric motor made it more efficient somehow.  I can absolutely understand the no shifting part, and no power bands, and instant torque but still.. anytime you convert 'energy' in any way shape or form you lose some of it via non useable by your app... forms.  ie heat, light, whatever..

....

The way I see it, either Be ICE or Electric, both is just more crap to break down with no clear benefits anywhere.  Well, there is one exception that comes to mind.  Locomotive Trains.. it's a big diesel generator and the actual tractor motors are electric.

Aaron

Benefits,  below 6 mph,  reverse/parking mode,  Quiet or no exhaust noise except for when punching a hole in the atmosphere at significant velocity.  Also, I am noting some of these motors, at least their patent holder's videos and articles put gasoline, lpg, lng, hydrogen.  Diesel is more effecient just because the compression ratio is higher,  I remember seeing the math behind the carnot cycle engine effeciency.

How about another benefit, the ability to offer battery warranty of 7 or 8 years like most cage type vehicles.

[TheRan]

I think he means benefits over having just electric. The only advantage of a hybrid system is being able to refuel at a gas station, or the extended range from carrying extra gas with you. But with the advancement of fast AC charging that is diminishing all the time. Given the inefficiency of turning gas into energy (twice in a hybrid) I do wonder just how much extra range you could squeeze into the limited space on a bike.

As for the battery warranty, I don't think it would be any longer than a pure electric bike as you're still using the battery the same amount to propel the bike. If anything it would be worse due to the constant charging and discharging, potentially outside of the "safe" window that many keep their electric bikes at.