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Author Topic: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened  (Read 968 times)

Tony

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When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« on: August 30, 2022, 06:17:21 AM »

After battling some range anxiety earlier this summer, I decided to run a controlled experiment on my Zero SR/F 2020 premium, to see what exactly happens when you run out of battery power. I also wanted to check the real max range, as I was hit by that magic charge error earlier, which would give me only about 80km range, and wanted to make sure it was truly fixed after having it serviced.

Also, I am the kind of control freak who does not want to leave anything to the unknown, and although there has been some comments on this topic in other parts of these forums, I wanted to see what happened by myself. :)

So, I started off at 100% charge, then I drove the motorbike in various conditions. City, freeway, with passenger and without. Always driving in Sports mode. Over a period of about 1-2 weeks. Finally, today I reached 11% battery charge and decided to drive around where I live to drain the rest. At the end I drove in smaller and smaller circles to ensure I was never too far from a charging point. Being prepared to push it in the end, if I had to.

First of all, quite impressed with the final range. I got 206km in the end before hitting 0% charge, making no efforts at all to drive in an eco friendly way. A majority of my rides were high speed rides on the freeway with my gf as a passenger. I am quite heavy at nearly 100kg, gf 50kg, and we drove up many steep hills. I also have three cases on the bike, so it has to fight some extra wind resistance due to the larger profile. So, the bike surely had to do some real work. And between runs it was parked for quite long time, presumably also leaking a little bit charge.

It was quite tedious to drain the last 5% or so, as I wanted to make sure I would not end up in a steep uphill towards the charge point, should it just finally die suddenly. But it all went without drama, and this is what I found:

- When the bike went below 10%, I noticed the acceleration power started to vanish. It was not sudden, but a slow transition from full to low power. At first I would only notice it if I maxed the throttle, and the MC would kind of give up after delivering the first raw acceleration. The give up point was first at about 60 km/h, and as I gradually went lower on juice, the weakness point had gone all the way down to 0km/h.

- Once I reached 0%, there was no sudden battery saving mode kicking in. The acceleration kept being weaker, but I had no problem accelerating up to 80 km/h, given some patience. It did continue to weaken after the 0% mark though.

- As I was driving in a 40km zone, near my home in the city center, I did not dare to check the max speed much. But after driving about 6 km past the 0% point, I decided to do a final race to check the max speed. I found the MC really struggled to accelerate fast now, it now maxed out at about 60km/h. Although, if I was in a freeway, I might have been able to push it over this speed. I could only push it for a short period of time, due to the 40km/h speed limit.

- Having gone 6km over the 0% point, I was starting to get a bit bored with the test as I had been driving around in circles for about 10km already, it was getting cold and I didnt really want to get off and push the MC the last bit in the end. So, I ended it there. Although it would have been interesting to see just how much safety margin there is, and what exactly happens once you really run out of juice. I would not be surprised if the MC could go a lot further while in this low power mode though.

In the end I was quite happy with the result. The engineer servicing the MC had got rid of the magic charge bug for sure, at least for now. And, I learned the bike will not suddenly die at 0%, also wont suddenly become weak in an instant. It will allow you some wiggle room in the end. Although, you'd probably not want to be on a high speed road at the moment you reach 0%, as you will surely become a dangerous roadblock driving at around ~60km/h. I suppose some might prefer it to retain max power until really suddenly dead (my previous electric scooter was like that), but, for me the current way with gradually lower max power is quite satisfactory (as long as it is induced at the correct point, and not too early, as it likely will if you have that magic charge problem I had before)

Anyway, hope this was useful for someone. :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 06:35:19 AM by Tony »
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MVetter

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2022, 06:48:58 AM »

I applaud the desire to test and collect data. Unfortunately, the bike is your biggest obstacle because you cannot trust the data it gives you. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's a good chance your bike really was at 0% but you cannot prove it. The reason you cannot prove it is because Zero removed the tools for the average user to do so: voltage display.

Without a tap into the main battery I refuse to believe anything the Zero screen tells me. The SR/F is the only electric motorcycle that has lied and left me stranded on the side of the road. If I somehow acquired an SR/F or SR/S the first thing I'd do would be to tap into the B+ and B- lines going into the DC-DC and run them to a voltage screen. This is what Terry was forced to do and I'd do the same.
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Mooseman

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2022, 09:46:20 AM »

Not the point of your post, but how does your dash look like that? I have a 2021 SR/S premium and except for the scratches it looks nothing like yours. Is that a software before version 19 or something?

As for the range, I've only drained the battery to about 5% or so. I just don't have the balls to go all the way to 0% and then continue to drive. Thanks for checking it out though, it's still comforting to know that I'll likely still have some extra mileage if I ever need it.
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DonTom

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2022, 10:45:56 AM »

The SR/F is the only electric motorcycle that has lied and left me stranded on the side of the road.
What was your SOC at the time?


-Don-  Reno, NV
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MVetter

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2022, 12:09:22 PM »

What was your SOC at the time?

I've timestamped the video to the relevant part. Just press play.

https://youtu.be/CjIXCD2-CdU?t=763
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Tony_

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2022, 04:37:49 PM »

Not the point of your post, but how does your dash look like that? I have a 2021 SR/S premium and except for the scratches it looks nothing like yours. Is that a software before version 19 or something?

As for the range, I've only drained the battery to about 5% or so. I just don't have the balls to go all the way to 0% and then continue to drive. Thanks for checking it out though, it's still comforting to know that I'll likely still have some extra mileage if I ever need it.

It's version 20 (battery management) / 24 (main board). I also customised the quadrants using the app

The scratches are invisible in normal conditions by the way, they just stand out in the image due to the low light conditions and the strong reflections...
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jonblow

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2022, 05:20:21 PM »

Funny, I did the same test a few years back on my SRF because I wanted to know what would happen, and like you I got to around 2% and gave up as I just couldn't seem to drain the battery fast enough before I got bored. I must have done about 20 laps around my town before I gave in. Good to know the bike just won't die even when it gets really low on charge.
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Mooseman

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2022, 05:33:52 PM »

]It's version 20 (battery management) / 24 (main board). I also customised the quadrants using the app

Weird... I have the same versions installed and while I am aware that the layout is customizable, it will always prominently show the SoC where yor speedo is.

My dash (and every SR/F / SR/S dash I could find during a quick google search) looks more like this:

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Richard230

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2022, 07:27:01 PM »

I ran my 2018 S with Power Tank down to an SOC of "00" six months after buying the bike. The first 100 miles was traveled at around 35 mph, but I climbed up and then down two hills about 1500 feet high. That took me to an SOC of 50%. The last 50 miles were run at between 50-55 mph on level ground, but against a 15-20 mph headwind.  That sucked up the rest of the battery pack. By the time I got to 5% SOC the bike had slowed to 35 mph, which conformed to the speed limit at the time. Once I reached an SOC of "00", I was able to rid an additional 6 miles at 25 mph, the last of which was a half mile up a hill to my home. I don't plan to try that again. Now I try to stay above 25% SOC before recharging.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Fred

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2022, 07:31:24 PM »

Not the point of your post, but how does your dash look like that? I have a 2021 SR/S premium and except for the scratches it looks nothing like yours.
This is the "new" version dash that I believe you'll need before purchasing any of the upcoming additions from the Cypher store. It seems this update can only be done at a dealer and won't happen automatically via the app (so far). Personally I think that's a good thing as I much prefer the current look. I suspect a lot of other people do too.
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TheRan

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2022, 08:31:35 PM »

]It's version 20 (battery management) / 24 (main board). I also customised the quadrants using the app

Weird... I have the same versions installed and while I am aware that the layout is customizable, it will always prominently show the SoC where yor speedo is.

My dash (and every SR/F / SR/S dash I could find during a quick google search) looks more like this:
Is that not just when charging? Every photo I could find showed the state of charge in the lower left, speed in the centre (or a warning that the side stand was down and/or the kill switch engaged).
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Mooseman

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2022, 08:42:49 PM »

If you google "zero srf dash" and then select "images" nearly every hit will show you the dashboard I posted earlier, that's why I was surprised that yours looks different.
And no, it's not only while charging. My dash always shows the SoC right on the center ring with the speed displayed in the middle of the ring. This part is not customizable.

Thanks @Fred for the explanation, that makes sense to me.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe this should be discussed in a separate thread as it has nothing to do with the original topic.
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TheRan

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2022, 08:53:59 PM »

Oh, when you said yours shows the state of charge where the speedo is I assumed you meant the large numbers, not the ring. As Tony's photo shows the bike at 0% state of charge I didn't even notice the ring was for speed and not the state of charge. Seems a bit pointless when I assume the speed is also displayed inside the ring where the side stand icon is in the photo he posted.
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Tony

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Re: When my Zero SR/F ran below 0% battery, this happened
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2022, 09:47:41 PM »

If you google "zero srf dash" and then select "images" nearly every hit will show you the dashboard I posted earlier, that's why I was surprised that yours looks different.
And no, it's not only while charging. My dash always shows the SoC right on the center ring with the speed displayed in the middle of the ring. This part is not customizable.

Thanks @Fred for the explanation, that makes sense to me.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe this should be discussed in a separate thread as it has nothing to do with the original topic.

Yes, Fred is right, the dash changed dramatically after a service last year. They said the same, that the new looks can only be unlocked by the service shop, like some kind of deeper BIOS update you cannot do through the phone.

I heard a lot of negative comments about the new looks, but personally I find nothing wrong. However the default settings has to be tweaked in the app or it omits a lot of useful info that was enabled by default in the old dash.

As for the cypher store unlocks this update supposedly makes possible, they have been "coming soon" for over a year now. I guess I will have bought a new MC by the time it is possible to buy any upgrades digitally.  :P
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