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Author Topic: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem  (Read 2591 times)

tonylai

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Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« on: June 13, 2021, 03:26:12 PM »

I'm building a two wheel drive electric motorcycle with front hub motor and rear hub motor and no gear, which means there are no gear ratio.
But my question is:
When there are no gear ratio, can the front and rear's horsepower output be 50:50?
Is 50:50 the best performance? Or 40:60? 30:70?
Thanks for your reply!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 03:39:28 PM by tonylai »
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Fran K

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2021, 07:37:25 PM »

You choose to put all that mass in the hubs and then ask about performance.  Then bring up % of power.  I would think % of ground speed would be key.

Yamaha with hydraulic front wheel drive

Alta/military project

Ubco utility vehicle

Christini two wheel drive that actually hired a pro Rider and entered competition.  They used a one way clutch that only powered the front when it turned slower than the rear.
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tonylai

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2021, 01:33:21 PM »

You choose to put all that mass in the hubs and then ask about performance.  Then bring up % of power.  I would think % of ground speed would be key.

Actually, I build it for my research, and yes, I agree that ground speed would be the key to maximum the performance of my 2WD electric motorcycle, but should I give the same throttle signed to front wheel and rear wheel?
I mean, should I give the same output/dirving force to these wheels?
Or should I give 40% throttle signal output to front wheel and 60% to rear wheel?

thanks for your reply!!!
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princec

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2021, 02:59:16 PM »

Generally seems to have been implemented elsewhere as 30% front, 70% rear.
Your real problem is that you will lose half of the major traction advantage of 2WD if the motors are not actually physically geared together. With your design it will be possible to spin up the front and lose it, which is otherwise impossible with 1WD, and self-correcting with mechanically geared 2WD. In other words ... an advantage that can suddenly become a disadvantage.
Cas :)
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T.S. Zarathustra

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2021, 05:44:42 PM »

When there are no gear ratio, can the front and rear's horsepower output be 50:50?
Is 50:50 the best performance? Or 40:60? 30:70?

Horsepower output depends on the motor. 50:50 is easily achieved by using identical motors front and rear.
Define "best performance". Acceleration, speed, max power, torque? On what surface; road, track, asphalt, dirt, rocks?
Why not use two different motors and have high torque at rear and high speed at front? Gives you good acceleration and good speed. Then you can have the rear motor act as dynamo and charge the batteries at high speed for limitless range. (Just kidding, you can't  ;D)
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Biff

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2021, 10:30:25 PM »

It really depends on how much power / torque you are talking about, and what kind of traction control system will be implemented.  If you aren't pushing the limits of traction in most conditions issuing equal torque commands to front and rear motors is probably going to work out just fine.  Where you get into trouble is when you are climbing a steep hill (which gives the rear wheel much better traction) and are turning a corner where you need the front wheel to set your course,  if you apply too much torque to the front wheel and it starts slipping just to maintain straight travel, you will have very little control to initiate a turn and could lose balance.  If you are just making a utilitarian vehicle where you want to get the best traction in all cases and maybe the front spins and looses traction sometimes, but isn't that big of deal because you are going slow enough that you just put your feet down to prevent a fall,  like the Ubco 2X2 , you can probably just give equal torque commands to the front and rear and hope for the best.

-ryan
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tonylai

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 02:09:22 PM »

Generally seems to have been implemented elsewhere as 30% front, 70% rear.
Your real problem is that you will lose half of the major traction advantage of 2WD if the motors are not actually physically geared together. With your design it will be possible to spin up the front and lose it, which is otherwise impossible with 1WD, and self-correcting with mechanically geared 2WD. In other words ... an advantage that can suddenly become a disadvantage.
Cas :)

As far as I know, 30% front and 70% rear are usually used for 4WD's car, right?
But how does 30% and 70% comes from? Are there any research paper or it just comes from experiment results?
On some paper I've read, it was told that giving more power (torque) on the front while entering the curve can cause some positive effect, and on the other hand, giving more power (torque) on the front while leaving the curve will cause some negative effect. But this paper didn't say how to calculate the distribution of front and rear. :'(

Thanks for your reply!!!
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tonylai

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 02:18:22 PM »


Horsepower output depends on the motor. 50:50 is easily achieved by using identical motors front and rear.
Define "best performance". Acceleration, speed, max power, torque? On what surface; road, track, asphalt, dirt, rocks?
Why not use two different motors and have high torque at rear and high speed at front? Gives you good acceleration and good speed. Then you can have the rear motor act as dynamo and charge the batteries at high speed for limitless range. (Just kidding, you can't  ;D)
[/quote]

The electric motorcycle already have two hub motor when I get it, the controller is what I'm building for.
The reason  I didn't define the best performance is because I'm wondering is there any way to find the best balance or order between acceleration, speed, torque and power.
If not, maybe slip ratio can be the define of best performance?


Thanks for your reply!!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 02:27:42 PM by tonylai »
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tonylai

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2021, 02:26:04 PM »

It really depends on how much power / torque you are talking about, and what kind of traction control system will be implemented.  If you aren't pushing the limits of traction in most conditions issuing equal torque commands to front and rear motors is probably going to work out just fine.  Where you get into trouble is when you are climbing a steep hill (which gives the rear wheel much better traction) and are turning a corner where you need the front wheel to set your course,  if you apply too much torque to the front wheel and it starts slipping just to maintain straight travel, you will have very little control to initiate a turn and could lose balance.  If you are just making a utilitarian vehicle where you want to get the best traction in all cases and maybe the front spins and looses traction sometimes, but isn't that big of deal because you are going slow enough that you just put your feet down to prevent a fall,  like the Ubco 2X2 , you can probably just give equal torque commands to the front and rear and hope for the best.

-ryan

Actually, I am doing the research of building the TCS on electric motorcycle by using the formula of slip ratio calculation based on wheels angular speed.
The research will focus on how to keep the electric motorcycle in the best slip ratio while slipping or turning.
Since we know if it is a 2WD electric motorcycle, turning can cause the front wheel slip and losing control, and that is not what I want.
In order to achieve the goal, the front wheel and rear wheel power (or torque) distribution will be important for me.
I've seen the Ubco 2x2, but I'm not sure whether it gives the some torque commands to the front and rear.

Thanks for your reply!!
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T.S. Zarathustra

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2021, 05:41:53 PM »

If it is a research/studying project I don't feel I should answer too much for you.
Just keep in mind you need to keep your eyes on the target and be sure you have all variables clearly defined, including "best performance".
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godot

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2021, 11:16:50 PM »

I have wanted to build a 2 motor electric motorcycle for a long time.  I just discovered this forum, and am thrilled that someone else is crazy enough to want to do this!

Controlling the distribution of torque to the 2 separate motors is a difficult control problem.  It is a complex electronic control problem which requires a highly intelligent electronic control system with multiple kinds of sensor inputs.  The controller must actively shift the balance of electric power delivered to each wheel instantaneously depending on the immediate circumstance of each moment of the ride.

Recall how complex the motor speed controller is for a Tesla, and Musk has the advantage of 4 points of contact, so his vehicle maintains static stability even if he screws up the control somewhat.  If the motor speed controller on a bike misestimates the balance of torque, it can easily lead to loss of dynamic stability (which is the only kind you have on a bike), resulting in a fall.  And I haven't even mentioned the difficulties involved in handling wheelies and burnouts.  But I am sure it can all be handled safely – given a rational development program.

If you are in California, I would like to help you build this beast.

Thank you.
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godot

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2021, 01:07:56 PM »

Tony,

As applies to your question, "When there are no gear ratio, can the front and rear's horsepower output be 50:50?" I would point out that the power delivered by an electric motors (and especially in the case of 2 matching electric motors) is proportional to the electric power delivered to the motors.  Electric power is measured variously as V*I (voltage x current), V^2/R (voltage squared divided by the load resistance), and I^2*R (current squared times the load resistance.)  The torque developed is proportional to the power.

So to a good approximation, you can deliver whatever arbitrary ratio of power you choose  to each wheel  by controlling the instantaneous voltage and current you deliver to each wheel's corresponding motor.  This holds absolutely true, but is both complicated and simplified slightly by the fact that most electric vehicles use 3-phase motors.  Complicated, because the math to derive the absolute power is complicated slightly more by involving factors of 3^.5, and 3^.5/2 (square root of 3; square root of 3 over 2) depending on specifics of the measurement of the current delivered to individual windings.  And simplified by the fact that (and this is the reason 3-phase is used in many large power electrical and electro-mechanical applications) the instantaneous power of 3-phase is CONSTANT. 

Single-phase is really best conceived of as delivering the signal and its inversion { sin(t)/2 and -sin(t)/2 } to the 2 inputs of the motor.  The instantaneous power is then proportional to V(t)*I(t), V(t)^2, or I(t)2.  If you think about it, sin(t) goes up and down, crossing the zero baseline in the middle.  In a single-phase motor, at each instant when the sin (and therefore the sin squared) functions cross the zero baseline, NO power is generated.  So the instantaneous power delivered by (say in a 60 Hz signal) a single phase motor is alternating between a high value (squared) and ZERO torque 120 times per second.  This generally produces an audible "buzz."

In 3-phase, the signals delivered to the 3 windings are sin waves mutually separated by 120?.  You can verify for yourself that
{ sin(t)^2 + sin(t+2?/3)^2 + sin(t+4?/3)^2 }, which is proportional to the instantaneous power and, hence, torque, is constant in any way you wish.  (I personally recommend https://www.wolframalpha.com.)  This is the reason 3-phase power has always been used virtually exclusively in motors for machine tools, and high voltage (high power) electrical transmission lines.  3-phase provides a much "smoother" energy source.

If you are unfamiliar with the operation of 3-phase motors, I recommend the animations in this vid:
How Electric Motors Work - 3 phase AC induction motors ac motor


and I highly recommend this short and concise article by Kazuya Shirahata:
Speed Control Methods of Various Types of Speed Control Motors
in HTML:
https://docplayer.net/21243181-Speed-control-methods-of-various-types-of-speed-control-motors-kazuya-shirahata.html
in Acrobat ("PDF"):
https://www.orientalmotor.com/brushless-dc-motors-gear-motors/technology/pdf/speed-control-methods-speed-control-motors.pdf
I note that this excellent young author and researcher is also in Taiwan.

To achieve a precise ratio of torque dynamically and instantaneously delivered to each wheel – including variations in supplied (battery) voltage due to dynamically-varying load – would require a complex (probably digital) special purpose dual motor speed controller.  But as I become more calibrated on the current (pun intended) state of your development of an all-wheel-drive motorcycle, I believe that you could achieve a reasonable approximation to whatever ratio of torque you desire to deliver to the 2 individual wheels by statically setting a constant ratio of electric power delivered to each motor. 

I am NOT advocating building a production motorcycle in this way, but as a test vehicle (pun, again, intended), you might consider using far larger (more highly parallel) batteries (WRT short-circuit current) than are required (so that the battery voltage remains approximately constant under load), measuring the motor winding resistance, and selecting an appropriate series resistor to be put in series with each of the motor windings of the motor you wish to deliver less torque.

Such an approach would NOT be acceptable in a production motorcycle, because a significant portion of the energy will be wasted in the series power resistors.  (Best to carefully calculate the maximum power requirements of said resistors:  Their power dissipation will be significant.)  By changing out the series power resistors for various values, you could determine what ratio of power between the 2 wheels you think makes the bike respond and handle best.  If you were adventurous, you could even use variable resistors (rheostats) or a 3-phase variac to adjust the relative power. 

{
Caveat:  I am somewhat squeamish about this adjustable power-ratio approach, because I think the probability of knocking the adjustable loads out of kilter during test flights is high, and the consequences could be devastating:  Both in terms of causing a crash, and and/or possibly burning out motor windings.  That's why I say the adjustable load approach is only for the "adventurous."  (As a biker, I'm sure you catch my meaning; danger is our middle-name.)
}

Both the danger of crashing during a test-flight, and the convenient availability of a "lab-bench space on the bike" are reasons that I suggest the possibility of first prototyping this beast using a commercial e-scooter.

I wish Craig Vetter were here to weigh in with his invaluable opinion.

Best of luck in your venture!  Wish I were in Taiwan to help with it!!!

godot
???


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godot

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2021, 01:26:32 PM »

@princec:
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will!), but isn't your response internally inconsistent and contradictory?

"Generally seems to have been implemented elsewhere as 30% front, 70% rear.
Your real problem is that you will lose half of the major traction advantage of 2WD if the motors are not actually physically geared together."

"The tooth is stronger than friction."

Are you, perhaps, conflating 70% stopping power in front with 70% thrust in back?  I hasten to point out that the front and rear brake are never geared together!  It would be dangerous to contemplate even getting on such a machine.

If the motors (wheels) are geared together, and the front and back of the bike are traveling the same distance, doesn't that guarantee that if the gears are working properly, the same torque is being delivered to the front and rear wheels?  If so, what is the advantage of having 2 motors???



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rgutt

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Re: Two wheel drive electric motorcycle problem
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2022, 04:14:58 AM »

Speaking to the original question, there is no "perfect" balance front to rear. Earlier posts referenced the torque splits on 4x4 vehilcles. Any of those used in the last 30-40 years use torque biasing differentials at least with the better stuff including computer controls to vary the torque bias according to need, and therein lies the answer to your question. There is no "perfect" bias. If you're going to setup your controllers at a fixed bias, then simply pick your level of acceleration and set the bias according to the friction loading each tire will see. If 100% torque from your rear motor is not enough to unload your front tire such that 100% torque from it will break itself lose, then you might as well leave it 50/50. If you really want to be cool about it, integrate your motor controllers with a traction control system. It'll handle modulating the torque from both motors to get the max that each can put down when you want it. Any less throttle, it really doesn't matter how the energy is split short of thermally overloading one of the motors by overutilizing it.
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