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Yes, it's a viable option that increase charging options

2 (40%)

Maybe - Can be hit or miss, so consider it a plan B

2 (40%)

Probably not worth planning for relying upon (a TeslaTap Mini might come in handy if you get lucky)

1 (20%)

Not even worth considering, practically speaking.  Save your time and money.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 5

[scottwstevenson]

Don,

I hope you make it home save and soon!

I have heat issues, too, here in FL, when trying to do highway rides and charge.  The lack of effective cooling has kept me from charging for upwards of 45min in the past.

A battery temp gauge to give some idea of when charging might be an issue would be great, e.g., if slowing down a bit to reduce battery temp would mean charging without waiting for the battery to cool when sitting still.  I'm sure its a complex calculus, but just knowing when you're approaching the critical batter temp above which charging is not allowed would be great to know.  On my bike at least, there's no indication (from the bike) of a critically high temperature after a fast / hard ride in the heat until one starts to charge.

-S

[DonTom]

Don,

I hope you make it home save and soon!

I have heat issues, too, here in FL, when trying to do highway rides and charge.  The lack of effective cooling has kept me from charging for upwards of 45min in the past.

A battery temp gauge to give some idea of when charging might be an issue would be great, e.g., if slowing down a bit to reduce battery temp would mean charging without waiting for the battery to cool when sitting still.  I'm sure its a complex calculus, but just knowing when you're approaching the critical batter temp above which charging is not allowed would be great to know.  On my bike at least, there's no indication (from the bike) of a critically high temperature after a fast / hard ride in the heat until one starts to charge.

-S

I made it home, see my new thread about charging in the heat. There is an app that shows battery heat, Zero Voltage. Charging stops when the battery gets to 50 C / 122 F.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Flybuddy]

Don,

I hope you make it home save and soon!

I have heat issues, too, here in FL, when trying to do highway rides and charge.  The lack of effective cooling has kept me from charging for upwards of 45min in the past.

A battery temp gauge to give some idea of when charging might be an issue would be great, e.g., if slowing down a bit to reduce battery temp would mean charging without waiting for the battery to cool when sitting still.  I'm sure its a complex calculus, but just knowing when you're approaching the critical batter temp above which charging is not allowed would be great to know.  On my bike at least, there's no indication (from the bike) of a critically high temperature after a fast / hard ride in the heat until one starts to charge.

-S

I made it home, see my new thread about charging in the heat. There is an app that shows battery heat, Zero Voltage. Charging stops when the battery gets to 50 C / 122 F.


-Don-  Reno, NV



-Don-  Reno, NV

Don, is that app accurate on the battery temp? Seems that if there were a temp sensor on the battery we'd be able to display that on the Zero display screen..thx

[DonTom]

Don, is that app accurate on the battery temp? Seems that if there were a temp sensor on the battery we'd be able to display that on the Zero display screen..thx

I also wondered why it is not on our screens. We only have motor temperature.


If the battery really stops charging at 50C, I will say that app is 100% accurate on reading the temp where we really need such.


But even without the app, you know your battery is getting too hot to charge as soon as you can get no more than one second of Regen and then coasting like you have never thought was possible on a Zero.


BTW, I assume there is also a temperature that will shut down the bike and you will not be able to ride at all. Or perhaps a limp mode. But fortunately, I didn't have to experience that, the bike ran fine, other than the no regen.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[scottwstevenson]

Don, is that app accurate on the battery temp? Seems that if there were a temp sensor on the battery we'd be able to display that on the Zero display screen..thx

I also wondered why it is not on our screens. We only have motor temperature.

If the battery really stops charging at 50C, I will say that app is 100% accurate on reading the temp where we really need such.

But even without the app, you know your battery is getting too hot to charge as soon as you can get no more than one second of Regen and then coasting like you have never thought was possible on a Zero.

BTW, I assume there is also a temperature that will shut down the bike and you will not be able to ride at all. Or perhaps a limp mode. But fortunately, I didn't have to experience that, the bike ran fine, other than the no regen.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I haven't noticed the lack of regen at high temperatures, but that makes sense of course. (This is only an issue so far for me when doing highway travel, and I try to find a charging station as close as possible to the highway, so minimal riding time where'd I'd notice it.

I have a 12V 2 x USB connected to a handlebar that has a thermistor dangling from it.   I could probably run a wire from that to a standardized spot on the battery (would not want to dig into the encasing of course) to get somewhat of a battery specific external temp, which I presume would reflect the battery temperature generally.

I found this on the unofficial Zero manual as far as temp limits: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Temperature_Limits   

It looks like 122?F or above and charging is reduced.

But I didn't find how / where *battery* temp is measured in the 2013+ unites. (A Charge control unit was used in 2013-2014, but not any more: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Charging_Control_Unit)

Seems it would be easy to tap into the BMS sensor to get temp, but I'm not finding that info. right now. 

122?F is not terribly hot, really.

-S

[scottwstevenson]

Don,

I hope you make it home save and soon!

I have heat issues, too, here in FL, when trying to do highway rides and charge.  The lack of effective cooling has kept me from charging for upwards of 45min in the past.

A battery temp gauge to give some idea of when charging might be an issue would be great, e.g., if slowing down a bit to reduce battery temp would mean charging without waiting for the battery to cool when sitting still.  I'm sure its a complex calculus, but just knowing when you're approaching the critical batter temp above which charging is not allowed would be great to know.  On my bike at least, there's no indication (from the bike) of a critically high temperature after a fast / hard ride in the heat until one starts to charge.

-S

I made it home, see my new thread about charging in the heat. There is an app that shows battery heat, Zero Voltage. Charging stops when the battery gets to 50 C / 122 F.


-Don-  Reno, NV

Cool - Glad you got home!

 Didn't see this post about the app!  SWEET!!!

-S

[DonTom]

I found this on the unofficial Zero manual as far as temp limits: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Temperature_Limits   

It looks like 122?F or above and charging is reduced.

But I didn't find how / where *battery* temp is measured in the 2013+ unites. (A Charge control unit was used in 2013-2014, but not any more: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Charging_Control_Unit)


122?F is not terribly hot, really.-S

The chart shows charge is tapered  at 43C to 50C which probably means it makes no difference if I try to charge at six KW or three KW. It shows charging stops at 50 to 60C, (122F to 140F) perhaps depending on FW version, but it was exactly 50C / 122F on my DS and I had NO charging at all, just an overheated alarm icon that I never saw before yesterday.  122F doesn't sound all that hot to me either, but I am no battery expert. It is what it is.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[KrazyEd]

   I have the 50 amp Tesla Tap that I use on my Mustang Mach E. Haven't yet tried it on any of my Zeros.
As far as connecting goes, I have discovered that here in Vegas at least, they mostly seem to be throttled back.
I have not had any NOT work, but, most seem to work similar to 30 amp J1772. I have found ONE that seems to
work at double that giving me 12KW an hour which is MORE than Ford claims. I usually do One or two hours exactly
at similar starting levels for comparison. The information isn't readily ( for me anyway ) accessible so I have to look
at percentage added in time connected.  If looking to take advantage of available charge capability, the 40 amp version
won't really provide more than the 8K or so previously mentioned. Glad that I chose the 50 amp over the 40. Had I Known
about the higher speed charger on the F-150 Lightning, I probably would have gone with the 80.
Not sure about earlier generation Destination chargers, but the newer ones have a switch inside that allows the owner to
set to " Tesla Only ". This probably wasn't thought of much early on, but, with more adapters coming on the market, it
is probably having more attention paid to it.
   As far as battery temperature, It is accessible via the app and possibly dash at least on the older models. I have a
2013, 2014, and 2016. I was working on " reviving " the batteries on my 2013 FX so rode a bit with only one battery installed
to see how it worked and distance. I discovered that the battery DID get hot and as I recall, it cut off at just under 130 degrees
battery temperature. I BELIEVE that I had battery temperature set for viewing either on the Dash or App when I was drag racing
my 2014.

[mryan]

Don, is that app accurate on the battery temp? Seems that if there were a temp sensor on the battery we'd be able to display that on the Zero display screen..thx

I also wondered why it is not on our screens. We only have motor temperature.

If the battery really stops charging at 50C, I will say that app is 100% accurate on reading the temp where we really need such.

But even without the app, you know your battery is getting too hot to charge as soon as you can get no more than one second of Regen and then coasting like you have never thought was possible on a Zero.

BTW, I assume there is also a temperature that will shut down the bike and you will not be able to ride at all. Or perhaps a limp mode. But fortunately, I didn't have to experience that, the bike ran fine, other than the no regen.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I haven't noticed the lack of regen at high temperatures, but that makes sense of course. (This is only an issue so far for me when doing highway travel, and I try to find a charging station as close as possible to the highway, so minimal riding time where'd I'd notice it.

I have a 12V 2 x USB connected to a handlebar that has a thermistor dangling from it.   I could probably run a wire from that to a standardized spot on the battery (would not want to dig into the encasing of course) to get somewhat of a battery specific external temp, which I presume would reflect the battery temperature generally.

I found this on the unofficial Zero manual as far as temp limits: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Temperature_Limits   

It looks like 122?F or above and charging is reduced.

But I didn't find how / where *battery* temp is measured in the 2013+ unites. (A Charge control unit was used in 2013-2014, but not any more: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Charging_Control_Unit)

Seems it would be easy to tap into the BMS sensor to get temp, but I'm not finding that info. right now. 

122?F is not terribly hot, really.

-S

Battery temp is probably talked to over CAN with the main bike board which then talks to the controller, and afaik no one knows how to talk to the BMS over CAN yet which is why the aftermarket charges are considered "dumb". Maybe with the pack opened up there may be a way to find it though.

https://zeromanual.com/images/b/bf/Anderson_pins.png

[scottwstevenson]

stops at 50 to 60C, (122F to 140F) perhaps depending on FW version, but it was exactly 50C / 122F on my DS and I had NO charging at all, just an overheated alarm icon that I never saw before yesterday.  122F doesn't sound all that hot to me either, but I am no battery expert. It is what it is.


-Don-  Reno, NV

Yes, I misspoke/typed what that chart says as far as tapering vs. preventing charging.

In my case, I'm using two aftermarket chargers and the onboard, with the first aftermarket (EVTricity) wired directly to the battery and the other (6.6kW) via the accessory port.

I'll have to pay closer attention, as I've had both of those chargers cut off when on a highway trip (hot day in FL), and that might be that the external charger connected to the the motor controller was cutting out b/c of voltage surges (the same J1772 that feeds that 3.3kW runs to the onboard charger which would cut off a 122?F) or possibly b/c it was getting too hot. 

I imagined the accessory port charging is under the control of the BMS of course.

(This is nice to know if / when I'm in a real jam and feel I can perhaps still get away with the 3.3kW charger wired directly to the motor controller/battery terminals and bypass the BMS' cut-off function.)

Battery temp is probably talked to over CAN with the main bike board which then talks to the controller, and afaik no one knows how to talk to the BMS over CAN yet which is why the aftermarket charges are considered "dumb". Maybe with the pack opened up there may be a way to find it though.

https://zeromanual.com/images/b/bf/Anderson_pins.png

The app that Tom posted is android only (I'm on an iPhone), unfortunately...  It seems though that a smart controller with a BT function could obviously gather that info. and thereby adjust charging.

Yes, it should be easy to spot a thermistor taking in the the temperature if someone does a batt. teardown (which has certainly been done!).

-S

[DonTom]

(This is nice to know if / when I'm in a real jam and feel I can perhaps still get away with the 3.3kW charger wired directly to the motor controller/battery terminals and bypass the BMS' cut-off function.)

Nope. The BMS is inside the battery case. The only thing you will bypass is the fuse for the external  charging.


My Elocns are wired to the motor controller and they go open when I get the alarm.  On the  2.5KW Elcons, if the light flashes alternate green and red, it means it sees no battery at all to charge,   and that was happening to me yesterday when I had the overheat alarm.


You probably don't want to charge a hot battery anyway. A good way to ruin it.


-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

[scottwstevenson]

(This is nice to know if / when I'm in a real jam and feel I can perhaps still get away with the 3.3kW charger wired directly to the motor controller/battery terminals and bypass the BMS' cut-off function.)

Nope. The BMS is inside the battery case. The only thing you will bypass is the fuse for the external  charging.


My Elocns are wired to the motor controller and they go open when I get the alarm.  On the  2.5KW Elcons, if the light flashes alternate green and red, it means it sees no battery at all to charge,   and that was happening to me yesterday when I had the overheat alarm.


You probably don't want to charge a hot battery anyway. A good way to ruin it.


-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV

Well I thought I could be a bit sneakier than Zero allows!

This explains then the behavior (going by memory - it's been a few weeks)  I've seen in the past when highway riding and charging was cutting out when trying to charge:

It was the larger of my two chargers (6.6kW) that would cut out, but the smaller that I've got wired to the BMS, which I presumed b/c the BMS was disallowing accessory charging (slowing to just the onboard, or so I thought), but this was actually b/c my charger was overheating, it seems.  The BMS would have shut off both chargers if battery temperature were too high.

So, now I'll have to pay attention as I've had quite a few different charging issues in hot situations, but can't recall the specifics of whether / when the bike was stopping charging (error) in relation to my chargers.  I know, for instance, when I came back from a ride last weekend the dash TEMP light came on when I was charging with the onboard (wall outlet - not external chargers), but it was apparently charging although giving no time estimate. 

The above has happened before and I simply unplugged and came back later when the bike was cooled down.  This last time I figured the BMS would allow charging when the bike cooled down, and the temp indicator would be off.  An hour or so later, the bike had been charging but the temp light was still on. I presume this was b/c charging rate was REDUCED (might have been a yellow / not red indicator, so this would make sense).

Thanks for your exchange here, Tom - very helpful to me! 

-S