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[princec]

Bit quiet in this topic, but I can't see anywhere else to ramble on, so ... I thought I'd start a thread where I muse about what's wrong with each of the main bikes on the market and what might be done to fix it. Or at least, tempt me in to buying one of them.

Zero FX (and S and DS)

• No traction control
• Ultra-short range
• Outdated dash & switchgear

I'd love one of these but where I live the roads are perpetually covered in mud and shit, or soaking wet, or both, and I just know that I'll highside it because of the total lack of traction from an electric motor. So for me, they're not even under consideration until they get the safety net of TC.

I can live with the ultra-short range because my commute happens to be 50 miles round trip and I can charge it up at work in the middle.

For ten large though, the dash and switchgear are a joke. KTM can manage to put state-of-the art stuff on a 390. C'mon Zero.


Zero SR/DSR

• Belt drive reliability
• No traction control
• Only 3kW AC charging onboard
• No CCS
• Outdated dash & switchgear
• Questionable styling
• Could do with another front disc
• Price : performance ratio

With a 50% price hike comes many more opportunities to whinge. The belt drive is the SR's biggest bugbear. I've seen at least 3 videos of Zero's belts snapping, two of which were the SR range I think. It doesn't matter if it's got a range of 1000 miles and costs just a thousand quid, if I can't be 100% sure it's going to get me to work without a basic mechanical failure, I can't even consider it. (Maybe I've been lucky but over the last 30 years and approximately as many bikes in varying conditions from new to decidedly antique, I've never had a breakdown through mechanical failure).

With even more power TC is more important - eh TMF?.

And now we're looking at 15 large, I'm expecting the same sort of premium equipment on this bike that every other bike at this price range has: TFT dash, LED this and that, easy-to-use switchgear. In fact if the SR/DSR don't get the lighting and dash off of the SR/F in short order they can probably expect to not sell any more of them. Also, bikes at this price are usually putting out at least 50% more power.


Zero SR/F (Premium)

• Belt drive reliability
• Waterproofing and general electrical component reliability
• Only 6kW AC charging onboard
• No CCS

Now we're looking at 20 grand, we can moan about the 6kW charging meaning a 2 hour charge time at the side of the road. It's not just that it inconveniences the rider waiting so long, it inconveniences everybody else who has to wait, especially as the proliferation of 12-22kW chargers continues. It ain't forward thinking or future proofing. Never mind the fact it doesn't have fast DC charging, essential for any distance work.


Energica Ribelle/SS9/Eva/Ego

• Weight, weight, and more weight
• Chain drive (noise! Mess!)

Fancy dash - check! CCS - check! Electronic aids - check! Styling - check! But OMG, have you ever tried to actually move one of these things? They are insanely heavy. I can barely shift one, and I spent 10 years riding fully loaded 1150GSAs.

And though the chain drive is ultra-reliable of course... it's messy and super noisy. Belts really are the way to go.


HD LiveWire

• Price
• Only 3kW AC charging onboard

There's no way in a million years I'd put down Tesla money to buy a bike. I'll be buying a Tesla, thanks.


Lightning Strike

• Doesn't actually exist

Cas

[BigPoppa]

I can only speak for the Energicas but they do have the slow speed reverse and forward to ease moving the bike around. I too come from larger bikes (Concours14, Victory Cross Country Tour, Triumph Trophy) and I find the Energica a bit easier to maneuver around than those bikes.

As for chain vs belt, there’s pluses and minuses to both. You can’t say one is better than the other, just different for different purposes. While the belt is virtually zero maintenance and cleaner, if you want the ability to fine tune performance by utilizing different sprocket sizes chain is the only option. On my last chain driven bike (Ducati Diavel) I played around a bit with different front and rear sprocket sizes to get an acceleration curve that suited me and my riding style. I couldn’t do that on my belt or shaft driven bikes. As for mess, it depends on how you clean the chain and what you use to lube it. I’ve used chain waxes for years and never had enough fling to make it feel like the chain was too dirty.

Sound is subjective. Personally I like the sound the Energica makes. Around town it’s loud enough that pedestrians notice me so that’s an added benefit.

[princec]

I like the sound of all of them, but definitely not a fan of chain noise (I never realised just how horrible the sound was because, well, I'd never ridden for any length of time with the engine off at speed before!). I've only ever altered the gearing on exactly one bike I've owned (and in fact still own ... the 690).

The Energica holds the dubious title of Electric Bike That Totally Conked Out On A Test Ride for me. Said it had 60% battery in the showroom. Got 2 miles then it decided no, actually, it had 0% battery and was going to stop in the middle of the road. So flat even reverse gear wouldn't operate. Nearly put my back out trying to haul it off the main road into a nearby driveway. It was unbelievably difficult to push - perhaps because it couldn't disengage the motor or something? Also it didn't really have much leverage or effective handholds (it was an EsseEsse9). It took two of us big blokes to get it into the back of the recovery van.

Cas

[Fran K]

To muse and ramble on and not about what might make the original poster here aquire an electric motorcycle.

How about the BMW  Supposedly available in this states Ca Ct Md Mn Nh NJ Ny and Pa.

There are the ones with 15,000 rpm motors, Harley with angle reduction gearing and Energica.  Then the direct drive ones that max out at about half of that.

I believe the energica uses a 520 chain which would seem to indicate sport oriented not a 530 or 532 like one would expect for that weight.

I believe the Harley has an on board charger for a normal 15 amp outlet so not 3kw like you put.


Whether you get or really need to be sensible an off board charger for the zero is something to consider, the one they offer for the FX is not very powerful.

As for the dealers Energica has given an exclusive for New England (I read) to a place in New York on the other side of the Hudson river.  The Zero dealers seem to be real salesman oriented, seem awful argumentative for stuff that I just read off the website. They also will tell you to go and talk to the parts counter or the service manager.  For the price of the FX you put 10k, out the door with the $600 accessory charger is probably a few k more (swapable battery variant) and then sales tax and registration.  For me there is not enough spent on the suspention for the price and intended purpose.  I can not communicate with the salespeople about getting it sprung for static sag and rider sag, they must put springs in it for max load.  Feel just about every ripple in the pavement of a test ride, no static sag at all.

Hopefully the FX will have a belt that is easier to change like the most recent introduced model.  A password to change the speedometer to match the gearing is kind of hard to believe for electronic stuff, at least for me used to a magnet on the front wheel as in off road oriented.

[Crissa]

The S is fine in the rain and slick.  Even an old one.  There are always rain failures in every series of motorcycle.

Most of the Energica guys I talked to today wouldn't ride their bikes in the rain.

The Harley does not have an onboard charger.  It only has DC or offboard granny cable.

All electrics are very difficult to push when conked out.  Basically, the regen gets stuck on.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

But OMG, have you ever tried to actually move one of these things? They are insanely heavy.

Yes, many times. It's even easier than moving my 317 lbs Zero DS 6.5.

All I need to do is press a button and the SS9 moves itself in reverse or slow forward at up to 1.75 MPH @ WOT.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

Yeah, Don, I can walk my Zero around with the throttle, too.

That's not the same as being light.

-Crissa

[princec]

I can physically lift up and drag around my 690 without even having to roll it on its wheels, but I literally don't think I could pick up an Energica if it ended up on its side, which given its colossal weight, is quite a likely thing to occur eventually. Also, see the aforementioned total flat battery situation. And if you want to cry with laughter, imagine my wife (all 5'3" and 9st of her) trying to move it

So that thing about the motor being stuck in engage while pushing is a thing. I wonder if it's solvable?

Shame about the LW on-board charger - I had thought they'd take advantage of the 240V outlets here in the UK to give it 3kW as standard. @Crissa - I'm pretty sure it's got onboard AC hasn't it? Even if it is just a kettle lead.

As for the rain thing - Jesus Christ of all the things you wouldn't want to have an insulation problem with its 100 volts and 400 amps. I'd want to be 110% certain it will never, ever, ever short out in the rain. (I've never had a bike with electrical issues, but then I've never had an old Italian bike )

Cas

[DonTom]

Yeah, Don, I can walk my Zero around with the throttle, too.

That's not the same as being light.

-Crissa

Yeah, not the same. The reverse is BETTER than being light. A lot better, IMO. There were times that I wished my lightest bikes had a reverse.

Try backing up your Zero uphill.

While a lot of the hassles of not having a reverse can be prevented  by watching how you're  parking, the reverse is very handy just to get my bikes in the garage here. I didn't realize how handy it was until I got  my Energica.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

A cording to the guy, the Livewire does have a little AC charger, but it seems to be a granny plug, not an on-board.  Remember they had problems with it interfacing with the bike?  The granny cable does come with when you buy it, but so does a bunch of stuff, apparently.

-Crissa

Don, reverse doesn't pick it up when I accidentally park it upside down.

[DonTom]

The Harley does not have an onboard charger.  It only has DC or offboard granny cable.

The cable only passes through the AC voltage. The LW has a 1.5 KW internal charger, much like your Zero.

CCS is designed to be able to accept 120 VAC or 240 VAC as well as DC direct to the battery. When there is AC, the bike's internal charger is used.

My Energica also has such a cable. Put in 120 VAC and get out 120 VAC. Put in 240 VAC and get out 240 VAC. All it does is supply what is needed for the J1772 standard. The bike's CCS can accept DC or AC but uses different pins. Same with CCS cars.

Read the specs on the back of the Granny Cable.  There is NO DC output. A Granny cable is not a charger at all. Mine from my Energica can be used on the LW and vice versa, just my Enegica will charge twice as fast on 240 VAC with either cable.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[togo]

Check the SS9+, the Ribelle, the Ego+ weights. Energica actually decreased bike weight in the larger battery models.

The biggest batteries with the fastest charging. I bought stock.

[stargazerinwg]

Regarding the FX (I have a 2017):
I agree the dash needs improved, Zero should include the capability to set the sprocket sizes for those who install the chain kit so one could have an accurate speedometer.  Or let the owner do it with the app.
It could be an OK dual sport bike except for the limited range.
Agree about the TC option if it doesn't add much weight.
The inner fender has been a problem for me when conditions are wet and muddy; it just peeled the mud off the knobby and piled it up around the shock.  I replaced it with a simple mud flap similar to what ktm uses.
The brake lever should be adjustable and not stick out so far.  I shortened mine.

[TheRan]

Dealers can adjust the speedo if needed, although as you say it would be nice if it could just be changed in the app.

Traction control wouldn't add any weight as it would just use the existing wheel speed sensors that are used for ABS and cut power if the rear wheel started spinning faster than the front. Another method that has been mentioned on here previously is to limit the rate at which the rear wheel can accelerate so it can only go as fast as it could actually accelerate the bike in ideal conditions.