ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on February 06, 2020, 09:08:03 PM
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I am curious about EV battery life. As we all know, EV manufactures provide an estimated battery pack life expectancy down to 80% of the packs original capacity. But my question is how does the average EV owner know when the battery pack has degraded to 80%. ??? No doubt that can be scientifically tested, but how does the owner know when to ask a shop to perform this testing to determine if the pack is at the end of its life and needs to be replaced?
And if that ever happens to a Zero, I wonder how much it would cost to replace the bike's battery pack?
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Well the big boys say you have to drain it down and fill it back up and watch your Kill a Watt meter to see how much it puts in.
I want to say a battery replacement for a full size pack is about $6000. A Zero dealer could quote you a price I'm sure.
I've seen my 17's SOC % acting strange lately myself. I think Don said he is having a similar issue.
In the summer I'm getting maybe 1.5 miles per % number and I know it's cooler and I lose range. But the lowest I've ridden in is about 38F
and plenty in the 50s and 60s. My work commute is 56 miles total with only 18 miles at 55-60MPH the rest is 35-45 on little town back roads.
In the summer I might come home with 55-60% and now I've been getting home at 35%.
Here's the kicker, if I plug it in it jumps up pretty quick to 45-50-% in like 10 minutes. The app shows the same info as the dash.
I had a few days where it sat after I got home with 36% and it showed 49% when I plugged it in.
I know the SOC % isn't super accurate for true remaining capacity but I don't remember it this far off.
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Hi Richard,
I've been quiet on here for quite a while but Tapatalk notified me of your post and I thought I had something to contribute.
The 11.4 battery in my 2014 DSP was replaced about a year ago under warranty. As part of that process I learn that the cost of a new one is £4,000 here in the UK.
That’s about what the bike is worth if I were to sell it privately!
I hope you and the rest of the EMF community are keeping well.
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Well, the major cars - Leaf, Boot, Tesla - have battery management systems which test the battery health and then conservatively limit it, reporting the loss in range.
I don't think they have a testing process for Zeros, looking at how dealers seem to handle the question.
-Crissa
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Hi Richard,
I've been quiet on here for quite a while but Tapatalk notified me of your post and I thought I had something to contribute.
The 11.4 battery in my 2014 DSP was replaced about a year ago under warranty. As part of that process I learn that the cost of a new one is £4,000 here in the UK.
That’s about what the bike is worth if I were to sell it privately!
I hope you and the rest of the EMF community are keeping well.
Thanks Bonkers. That price doesn't sound too bad to me, especially if it includes labor. Paying $5,200 to replace a battery pack sounds about right - especially if you get the 450,000 miles out of the original battery pack as claimed in Zero's 2017 paper brochure. ;)
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I am curious about EV battery life. As we all know, EV manufactures provide an estimated battery pack life expectancy down to 80% of the packs original capacity.
Tesla uses 70% for their warranties, but Zero uses 80%.
They should have the equipment to test the battery under load at shop temperature. I assume if the battery tests bad under warranty it is all covered. But if it tests good, I assume we will have to pay the labor rate for their testing.
I don't think there is a way possible to know when you hit that 80% as a rider. Too many variables, even for the same ride on different days. But perhaps you can tell by a faster charge time. But that may not be consistent. But it is common for the charge time to decrease in proportion to the KWHs left in an EV battery. But not always. Depends on how the battery ages. There is more than one way for an EV battery to fail or age. The charge time decrease happens with my DS.
It charges twice as fast as the display says it will take, which is also twice as fast in real time to get to 100% SOC. And my range seems to average about 50% of what it was when new.
My main reason to come to Auburn was to pick up my RV (bad fuel pump inside 55 gallon tank). I rode my Zero DS to the repair place 12 miles from here. All down hill, to Newcastle today. Took 50% of my charge at 50MPH average, all downhill to go that 12 miles. I put the bike on the RV hitch ramp and drove my RV back here with the bike.
In a few days or so, I will take my DS back to Reno. On my Jeep, using the same cycle ramp. I have an appointment with EuroCycles in Reno in less than a week from today.
Then I will know more about how all this works. My biggest fear is if they find it has 80.1% capacity left ;).
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Have you had a look at the logs from your bike Don? In my case they flagged up a couple of bad cells. You could have the same issue, as the net effect was a considerable drop in range.
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While slightly off topic, one of my fears is that I will recollection of how far I can travel to a destination based upon previous experience only to find that battery capacity had degraded enough (without me being aware of it) to not get there without finding someplace to recharge - in my case at 1300 watts.
Case in point: When my bike was new I was able to ride for 150 miles on a route that took me from my home to Big Basin State Park, back up the coast highway to my town, where the SOC hit "00", but I was able to make it all the way back on the 10 mile "reserve" capacity, arriving home with a remaining range of 4 miles. I don't think I would want to give that ride a try again as I bet my battery pack, which seems healthy enough, has lost enough capacity to not make that trip again on a single charge.
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I don't think they have a testing process for Zeros, looking at how dealers seem to handle the question.
I recall reading somewhere they have a way to load test the battery to see if it qualifies for a warranty repair.
Obviously they are not going to replace such an expensive item under warranty is they cannot be sure.
By far, the battery is the most expensive item in the bike.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Have you had a look at the logs from your bike Don? In my case they flagged up a couple of bad cells. You could have the same issue, as the net effect was a considerable drop in range.
No, I haven't. I didn't even think about that. But I will soon do such and report back here what I find.
Thanks!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.
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You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.
Less a percentage factor for the inefficiency of the charger. Probably something like 10%. ???
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You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.
Less a percentage factor for the inefficiency of the charger. Probably something like 10%. ???
92-94% efficiency on 115v and 220v respectively according to the specs. Ideally the test would be done when the battery is new to compare with so the efficiency doesn't need to be accounted for and you don't have to rely on Zero giving accurate numbers.
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You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.
Charge time was certainly a very good clue on my DS!
FWIW, an AC kill-a-watt meter only tells you the KWH used going into the battery. Any load will give a reading. Even if no battery is involved.
BTW, I do have one of those around here somewhere. But I can see I am charging at 1.4 KW with the Zero app. And that is the DC output power.
When the display says it will take 2.0 hours to charge to 100% and it is at 100% in 45 minutes to get to 100% SOC, something is obviously wrong. And since my range is also less and half, it's obvious it means a flaky battery in my case.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You can't judge the battery condition on the time to charge, it's not a constant rate. The best way to judge it is to use a kilowatt hour meter (such a a Kill-a-watt) and see just how much energy is going into it, then compare that to the nominal capacity that Zero gives.
Charge time was certainly a very good clue on my DS!
FWIW, an AC kill-a-watt meter only tells you the KWH used going into the battery. Any load will give a reading. Even if no battery is involved.
BTW, I do have one of those around here somewhere. But I can see I am charging at 1.4 KW with the Zero app. And that is the DC output power.
When the display says it will take 2.0 hours to charge to 100% and it is at 100% in 45 minutes to get to 100% SOC, something is obviously wrong. And since my range is also less and half, it's obvious it means a flaky battery in my case.
-Don- Auburn, CA
When charging my bike it varies between a little over 800 watts to just over 1500 watts, without graphing that over time I can't possibly estimate how much energy has gone into the battery. Of course charging time will give you an idea if capacity is reduced, if comparing it to earlier times, but it can't be used to figure out by how much.
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When charging my bike it varies between a little over 800 watts to just over 1500 watts, without graphing that over time I can't possibly estimate how much energy has gone into the battery. Of course charging time will give you an idea if capacity is reduced, if comparing it to earlier times, but it can't be used to figure out by how much.
And the time on the display to 100% SOC (ever notice it?) will take that into consideration. Add a charger and you will see the time to 100% decrease on the display in proportion to charge rate.
My charge rate is the same as ever, but there is only half the battery to charge at that same (varying) rate. The display only "knows" about the charge rate, not the battery, so it shows twice the time that it really takes to get to 100% SOC.
IOW, my time to 100% SOC is programmed for a 6.5 KWH battery that really only has around 3.25 KWHs. The time to charge doesn't "know" my battery will finish the charge in half the time it shows.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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When charging my bike it varies between a little over 800 watts to just over 1500 watts, without graphing that over time I can't possibly estimate how much energy has gone into the battery. Of course charging time will give you an idea if capacity is reduced, if comparing it to earlier times, but it can't be used to figure out by how much.
And the time on the display to 100% SOC (ever notice it?) will take that into consideration.
How could it? It can't predict the future. It has no way of knowing what the average wattage will be over the charging period. Anyway that's besides the point, which is that the charging rate can vary (and thus the time to charge). If one day my bike average closer to 800 watts and then in a couple months time it averages closer to 1500 watts, just because my bike charged faster doesn't mean the battery capacity has decreased.
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How could it? It can't predict the future. It has no way of knowing what the average wattage will be over the charging period.
It's programmed for the bike, it has no need to read the future. If everything is working right, it's quite accurate. Haven't you ever used it? See how accurate it is on your bike. Mine used to be accurate within a few minutes or so, if not right on the nose. Now it reads double the time it takes to get to 100%.
Go charge your bike and look at it, and report back here how far off it is by using a real clock. Your charge rate makes no difference. Use as many or as little external chargers as you want, the display will know.
I get the feeling you never even knew the Zero display tells you how long the charge should take--at any charge rate.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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How could it? It can't predict the future. It has no way of knowing what the average wattage will be over the charging period.
It's programmed for the bike, it has no need to read the future. If everything is working right, it's quite accurate. Haven't you ever used it? See how accurate it is on your bike. Mine used to be accurate within a few minutes or so, if not right on the nose. Now it reads double the time it takes to get to 100%.
Go charge your bike and look at it, and report back here how far off it is by using a real clock. Your charge rate makes no difference. Use as many or as little external chargers as you want, the display will know.
I get the feeling you never even knew the Zero display tells you how long the charge should take--at any charge rate.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I'm well aware that it exists, both on the dash and the app. It's never been that accurate for me, usually it underestimates how long the charge will take.
I don't know for sure how it makes the estimate but it can be one of two ways, it can assume a certain constant charge rate (say 1200w) and not care if it varies or it can take an average wattage reading over a certain amount of time and periodically update the expected charge time. If it uses the first method then using the time estimate on the dash can be an accurate measure of capacity if the bike itself knows the capacity (it has the means to calculate it). If it uses the latter method, which would be the most logical, then the time on the dash is meaningless in determining capacity. In either case actually timing how long it takes to charge is also meaningless because the charge rate isn't constant.
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I'm well aware that it exists, both on the dash and the app. It's never been that accurate for me, usually it underestimates how long the charge will take.
I don't know for sure how it makes the estimate but it can be one of two ways, it can assume a certain constant charge rate (say 1200w) and not care if it varies or it can take an average wattage reading over a certain amount of time and periodically update the expected charge time. If it uses the first method then using the time estimate on the dash can be an accurate measure of capacity if the bike itself knows the capacity (it has the means to calculate it). If it uses the latter method, which would be the most logical, then the time on the dash is meaningless in determining capacity. In either case actually timing how long it takes to charge is also meaningless because the charge rate isn't constant.
The time it shows varies with charge rate almost instantly. You can see that as you add and remove chargers, even non-Zero chargers connected a non-stock way. A delay of perhaps a half minute or less to show the new time. I have charged my SR as high as 8.4KW and the MUCH shorter charge time displayed is still accurate on the bike. My Elcons (5 KW total) go directly to the motor controller. To get to 8.4 KW, I add a couple of Delta Q chargers to the stock input designed for such with Zero's Y cable. I normally use 240 VAC for all my charging.
It's only my DS where it is not accurate because of the bad battery. The range on my SR has not changed much. At least not enough for me to notice. And no noticeable difference in the charge times. If it says I need to charge for an hour, if I come back to check five minutes early, it says I have five minutes left. It's very accurate on my SR, unlike my DS.
BTW, the most I ever charged my DS is at 3.4 KW. So I know I never overcharged it.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I don't know for sure how it makes the estimate but it can be one of two ways, it can assume a certain constant charge rate (say 1200w) and not care if it varies or it can take an average wattage reading over a certain amount of time and periodically update the expected charge time. If it uses the first method then using the time estimate on the dash can be an accurate measure of capacity if the bike itself knows the capacity (it has the means to calculate it). If it uses the latter method, which would be the most logical, then the time on the dash is meaningless in determining capacity. In either case actually timing how long it takes to charge is also meaningless because the charge rate isn't constant.
The time it shows varies with charge rate almost instantly. You can see that as you add and remove chargers, even non-Zero chargers connected a non-stock way. A delay of perhaps a half minute or less to show the new time.
-Don- Auburn, CA
So it makes an estimate based on the average wattage over a set period, the second method I mentioned. That's good for getting an accurate estimate if the average stays constant but it must not for me, it must drop over time so the charging rate slows towards the end (it's perhaps particularly high at the beginning, peaking at over 1.5kW for a 1.2kW charger).
Still, even if it is really accurate it's not always going to be consistent and that's the point I'm trying to make.
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Why wouldn't it know the charge rate? It's what's talking to the chargers.
-Crissa
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So it makes an estimate based on the average wattage over a set period, the second method I mentioned. That's good for getting an accurate estimate if the average stays constant but it must not for me, it must drop over time so the charging rate slows towards the end (it's perhaps particularly high at the beginning, peaking at over 1.5kW for a 1.2kW charger).
Still, even if it is really accurate it's not always going to be consistent and that's the point I'm trying to make.
I think charge time will be reasonably consistent if the battery itself doesn't change much and the temperature is near normal. Of course the charge rate drops near the end. And likewise, it shows that longer time in the time left to charge.
If yours shows significantly more time than it takes to charge, have you also noticed a reduction in your average range? Perhaps you're starting to have the same problem as with my DS. What size battery is in your Zero? Usually the smaller batteries crap out faster than the ones with more KWHs available as the percentage of load versus KWH is larger on the smaller batteries.
MY SR with pwr tank is the same age as my DS and has as much range (and long charge times!) as it did when the bike was new. At least I cannot notice any difference.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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In the case of my 2018 S with PT, the estimated time to 100% SOC seems quite accurate, after it has been charging for a while and gets settled-in. When you first plug the charger in it provides a longer time than it will actually take. But after a while, the time reduces to become quite accurate, almost down to the minute when it will reach 100% SOC. But once that happens it will require about 10 more minutes more before the green light stops flashing and the charger shuts off. I closely watch this as I need to pull the charger power plug within 10 minutes of the charger cutting off otherwise the solid green light will remain on and the battery pack will slowly start draining after I pull the power cord. If I don't pull the plug, the green light will remain on (for days) until I turn the ignition on, at which time I will hear two loud clicks, then when I turn the ignition back off, I will hear one click and the green light will finally go off.
As I have said before, I have plugged in a Kill-A-Watt meter and there is no charge tapering on my bike once 100% SOC has been achieved. As soon as charging ends and the green charging light becomes solid, the power decreases from 1350 watts to 3 watts within a few seconds and will stay at 3 watts until the power cord is disconnected.
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So it makes an estimate based on the average wattage over a set period, the second method I mentioned. That's good for getting an accurate estimate if the average stays constant but it must not for me, it must drop over time so the charging rate slows towards the end (it's perhaps particularly high at the beginning, peaking at over 1.5kW for a 1.2kW charger).
Still, even if it is really accurate it's not always going to be consistent and that's the point I'm trying to make.
I think charge time will be reasonably consistent if the battery itself doesn't change much and the temperature is near normal. Of course the charge rate drops near the end. And likewise, it shows that longer time in the time left to charge.
If yours shows significantly more time than it takes to charge, have you also noticed a reduction in your average range? Perhaps you're starting to have the same problem as with my DS. What size battery is in your Zero? Usually the smaller batteries crap out faster than the ones with more KWHs available as the percentage of load versus KWH is larger on the smaller batteries.
MY SR with pwr tank is the same age as my DS and has as much range (and long charge times!) as it did when the bike was new. At least I cannot notice any difference.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Perhaps there's something up with my charger, but as I've said the charge rate varies from 800 to 1500 watts. If it spends more time at 1500 it will charge faster, if it spends more time closer to 800 it will charge slower. The estimated time isn't wildly inaccurate nor does the charge time vary drastically from what I would expect (it tends to average out to around 1200/1300 watts, around 2.5 hours for half a charge, etc.) but the fact that it doesn't charge at a constant and steady rate means that it could vary.
When you're charger your bike, does the charge rate stay at a constant wattage as shown by the app? Is that wattage always the same?
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My app shows the amps and watts of course jump around all over the place. My Kill a Watt meter shows it being much steadier.
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My app shows the amps and watts of course jump around all over the place. My Kill a Watt meter shows it being much steadier.
I have noticed that also, but it's only with the OBC. If you run ONLY Delta- Q-Chargers or other chargers and keep the OBC off, it is rock steady using the same app. And like you say, even the OBC is rock steady on a kill-a-Watt meter on the AC side as it is jumping all over on the DC side.
If you run both, the OBC with the Delta Q chargers, it is still a jumpy output.
I was wondering if it had something to do with cell balancing, but I think all that is done only near the end of the charge. This jumpiness is at any percentage of SOC when the OBC is on.
I wish I knew why, but I could not find a clue.
In fact, I have asked about that here more than a year ago. Seems nobody knows the reason why it's jumpy on the app only when the OBC is on--yet steady on the AC side. And steady with running any chargers without the OBC using the same app.
So I will ask again . . .
Anybody here have a clue why?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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No clues here. ;)
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When you're charger your bike, does the charge rate stay at a constant wattage as shown by the app? Is that wattage always the same?
I have not looked at the app while charging for quite a while, so I cannot be sure what the app says but I assume it will show less wattage at the last 5% or so of SOC
What I do remember is the jumpiness in watts on the app whenever the on-board charger is used and it being rock steady when any other external charger is used. And how the AC current is rock steady as it is jumping on the app. I remember all that because I found it to be very unusual and have no clue what is really happening. BTW, that was why I put a Killowatt meter on the AC side. Since it was rock stable, it only added to the confusion of what causes the jumpiness in the app only when the OBC is used.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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> ... This jumpiness is at any percentage of SOC when the OBC is on.
> I wish I knew why, but I could not find a clue.
Even when cold? I'm thinking it could be thermal...?
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> ... This jumpiness is at any percentage of SOC when the OBC is on.
> I wish I knew why, but I could not find a clue.
Even when cold? I'm thinking it could be thermal...?
It jumps every half second or so. No matter when you check the OBC. It jumps so fast that it is difficult to get a reading. But the external chargers are rock steady as long as the OBC is not being used.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I’ve just remembered... when I was monitoring the battery via Zero’s app, I noticed the cell balance going haywire. I think that cells that have gone bad are likely to go out of balance much quicker than good cells. I hope your logs shine some light on this and that your local dealer can help to diagnose the issue. Push for a battery replacement under warranty and if they refuse, demand a thorough explanation as to why and share the technical details with us here.
Good luck! :-)
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I’ve just remembered... when I was monitoring the battery via Zero’s app, I noticed the cell balance going haywire. I think that cells that have gone bad are likely to go out of balance much quicker than good cells. I hope your logs shine some light on this and that your local dealer can help to diagnose the issue. Push for a battery replacement under warranty and if they refuse, demand a thorough explanation as to why and share the technical details with us here.
Good luck! :-)
Oh, maybe you were observing normal battery balancing.
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I recall the cell balance, or imbalance, jumping up to 144 mV after riding a short distance. It would reduce to more normal levels when the bike was stopped. Another indication of bad cells, I would think.
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Or spotty connection to good cells. A connection that opens or condensation/moving water. Any indication of water ingress? Do you park outside uncovered?