ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DonTom on December 27, 2019, 01:14:06 AM
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Great news for Energica and Livewire riders who live in CA.
On Jan 1, 2020, six days from today, it will be illegal for CA to charge for time for charging. All prices will be in KWHs ONLY.
See here. (https://electrek.co/2019/12/24/california-bans-per-minute-billing-tesla-superchargers-will-need-displays/)
So now, charge all they way to full, if you want , while in CA.
Even if they raise the KWH price, it will soon still be cheaper for motorcycles. It will be the cars that get the shaft instead of the bikes.
Most of my CCS charging is done in CA, by far.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
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I did notice this comment, though: This rule will only apply to new Level 2 chargers deployed 2021 onwards, and DCFC chargers deployed 2023 onwards. But as of 2031 for Level 2 and 2033 for DCFC, all EVSEs in the state must comply with the rule, no more grand-fathered exceptions.
Of course, the government giveith and then takeith away. Starting in 2020, electric vehicles registered in California will have another $100 tacked on to their (already high because it is based upon the original purchase price) yearly license registration fee to help reimburse the state for EVs not paying a gas tax. Perhaps no big deal for Tesla owners who drive heavy cars and rack up the miles, but not very fair for lightweight electric motorcycles that do not travel nearly as many miles on public roadways. :(
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I did notice this comment, though: This rule will only apply to new Level 2 chargers deployed 2021 onwards, and DCFC chargers deployed 2023 onwards. But as of 2031 for Level 2 and 2033 for DCFC, all EVSEs in the state must comply with the rule, no more grand-fathered exceptions.
The way I read it, is that only applies to the display that I don't even care about. IMO, that should only need to apply to non-networked stations.
Of course, the government giveith and then takeith away. Starting in 2020, electric vehicles registered in California will have another $100 tacked on to their (already high because it is based upon the original purchase price) yearly license registration fee to help reimburse the state for EVs not paying a gas tax. Perhaps no big deal for Tesla owners who drive heavy cars and rack up the miles, but not very fair for lightweight electric motorcycles that do not travel nearly as many miles on public roadways. :(
I really get screwed on that deal as I have to pay for vehicles that are not being used, unlike ICE vehicle road tax I only pay when I get gas, not when they are in my garage not going anywhere.
However, by far, most EV owner's charge at home and the road money has to come from somewhere, so I cannot complain too much. But I cannot ride all four of my EVs at the same time. But I also get screwed in similar ways on insurance.
-Don- Yuma, AZ
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How much do you even pay in gas tax, anyhow?
The law doesn't stop them for charging for parking, tho.
-Crissa
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How much do you even pay in gas tax, anyhow?
I don't know or care, it supports the roads in proportion to our ICE vehicle usage. I never complain about taxes, no matter how high they are. I normally only complain when I do not like what the revenue is used for.
It is very fair even if you do not use ICE vehicles. You don't pay until the gasoline is used, which means you're most likely driving on the roads. BTW, there is NO road tax when you buy marine gasoline for a boat that can only serve boats while on the water. And it is illegal to put such gasoline in a car. As fair as can be, so far.
But with EVs, I own four. Even if I never use any of them on any road all year, I must pay the road tax since they are going to do it by registration fees. But I really cannot think of a better way for them to do it, so I will not complain there too much ;)
The law doesn't stop them for charging for parking, tho.
Who is "they"? If you mean the company supplying the juice, they will NOT be able to charge by the minute for parking and I doubt "they" can charge for parking at all. But I assume others can, such as if it is in a public parking lot where everybody must pay. But then the parking money is going in a different direction.
If you look at Plugshare in Tucson for Blink charging stations, you will see the charge stations have what is called a "parking fee" which is charged by the minute. But it is so low, (like a penny or two per minute) that nobody cares. But I guess even that will be illegal in CA.
EV-GO (CCS charging) often costs something like sixty cents per minute to charge a slow electric motorcycle, regardless of how little charge you're getting. That is the type of BS CA is trying to stop.
That is much like paying more to fill up this RV at a gas pump, not because I use more gas, but because it takes more time to fill up. And then they can play games by making it pump slower. Well, they DO play these games with CCS charging and that is what CA is putting to an end to. IOW, reduce the charge current, to make you pay MORE!
They charge gasoline by the gallon. Electricity should be sold by the KWH. Neither should cost you for the time to get the job done, especially when they can control how long it takes you to get the job done.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
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As per the article:
The Department concludes that the primary commodity delivered by EVSE is electricity, not parking space accessibility, parking space rental time, or accessibility to the EVSE itself. The Department considers those as “other services” of the transaction.
Electric vehicle service providers are allowed to charge ancillary fees such as: a connection fee; waiting fee for staying connected after reaching full state of charge; parking fee where such charges are normally applied; and a non-network access fee where applicable, provided that these fees are disclosed to the consumer prior to initiating a charging session
So yeah, they can only charge a parking fee if they're also charging people to park who aren't charging, and presumably at the same rate. They can however charge a connection fee which I fear they may set high enough to make up for any lost profits from the law change.
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So, Don, you can't say whether the EV tax is equivalent to the gas tax?
And that time you're sitting there charging is time someone else can't charge.
-Crissa
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So, Don, you can't say whether the EV tax is equivalent to the gas tax?
And that time you're sitting there charging is time someone else can't charge.
-Crissa
The part of the article I quoted also mentioned a waiting fee after the vehicle is charged. I'm not sure how they'd really go about measuring that time, collecting the fee, and enforcing it.
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The part of the article I quoted also mentioned a waiting fee after the vehicle is charged. I'm not sure how they'd really go about measuring that time, collecting the fee, and enforcing it.
I see you have not used CCS or a Tesla SuperCharger. There is always a way to charge an account or a credit card.
Even at a gas station they run a small charge on a credit card, in advance, for around one dollar to make sure the credit card works. Then after you are done and left the station the rest is charged to your credit card.
Electricity is sold the same way. They charge you after you're gone, for the real total amount.
You cannot pay with cash at CCS or Tesla Superchargers. So it is very easy to be charged for idle time. And it will all be itemized, so you will know what you were charged for.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
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Gas station holding charge is from $50 to a hundred dollars, not one. Important if you don't have much room on your debit card ^-^
-Crissa
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Gas station holding charge is from $50 to a hundred dollars, not one. Important if you don't have much room on your debit card ^-^
-Crissa
I've seen booth ways. What pisses me off with this RV is the ones that will not let you go over that $50.00 or $100.00. The ones that only charge one buck as pending, will often have no such limit.
Filling this 70 gallon gas tank usually is well over that $100.00.
I normally do not use debit cards. Except at Arco where I must.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
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Keep everyone up to date on how this goes. I'm betting not good.
A few observations and predictions are coming true though. The 6kw stations never could work as a business model and will likely stop being installed if not shut down. They must feel the 10 minute charging won't be too much longer in development making time the least of their worries. Not for our bikes but they aren't thinking about them anyway.
I figured what my gas tax would be on a Zero figuring 50mpg and about 6k miles a year with GA's tax rate. It came out to $36 but I have to pay $200 per bike for the EV tax.
The tanker trucks bringing the gas tare up the roads more in one trip than my bike ever would.
Don you can pay my taxes too if you like. :)
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Keep everyone up to date on how this goes. I'm betting not good.
I think no matter what they do, it will be better than what they have been doing, when it comes to CCS charging on a motorcycle.
The electricity has been costing more than gasoline for CCS charging on motorcycles. Even with CA gas prices!
If I want to save money I would not take a CCS motorcycle between my houses in Reno and my house in Auburn. I would take my Triumph Trophy SE, which normally gets better than 50 MPG in either direction.
OTOH, if I could make that trip on a single charge, as the new "21.5 KWH" Energica can PROBABLY do, then it would be cheaper on that trip as I will then only need home charging at 11.7 cents per KWH (electricity is cheap in Reno). Cost a bit more in Auburn, but will still be cheaper than gasoline when home charged.
With the new CA law, it could make the CCS charging also cheaper than gasoline on a motorcycle, but only time will tell. My biggest fear is that they will close down many of the CA CCS charge stations and that is not the direction I want to see them go.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
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They'll probably just raise the price of power per KWh...
The problem with charging all told is that timers are cheaper than ammeters and the timed charging was encouraging both low kw chargers and discouraging level 2 chargers from being installed.
I expect this to bite us in the butt as who is going to install level 1-2 maintenance chargers if they can't charge for connect times? This means the cheap coin-op machines I tend to charge at are illegal which will be BS.
-Crissa
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The part of the article I quoted also mentioned a waiting fee after the vehicle is charged. I'm not sure how they'd really go about measuring that time, collecting the fee, and enforcing it.
I see you have not used CCS or a Tesla SuperCharger. There is always a way to charge an account or a credit card.
Even at a gas station they run a small charge on a credit card, in advance, for around one dollar to make sure the credit card works. Then after you are done and left the station the rest is charged to your credit card.
Electricity is sold the same way. They charge you after you're gone, for the real total amount.
You cannot pay with cash at CCS or Tesla Superchargers. So it is very easy to be charged for idle time. And it will all be itemized, so you will know what you were charged for.
-Don- Yuma, AZ (RV)
I have not, I only charge my bike at home at the moment. So are there no stations where you can prepay for a certain amount of energy (or currently time)? Do all stations know that a vehicle is still connected but not charging? What about if a vehicle is set to only charge to a certain amount, once that amount is reached can it disconnect in a way that the station wouldn't be able to detect it?
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Yes, all level 2 and fast chargers know if there is a vehicle attached. It's part of the standard. The socket tells the plug that it's ready and how much. DC charging is mostly done by the station unit while AC is mostly handled on the vehicle side. A DC charger will know how much power is consumed, while not all AC units keep track.
Once the vehicle is done charging, supply drops to a maintenance level. And then the station knows when it has been unplugged as well.
Some stations even know when a vehicle is parked in them but not plugged, but that's less common (tho with ICEing and parking violations common, that'll be a more common feature.)
-Crissa
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Do they detect that the plug is physically inserted in a socket, or is it an electrical data connection? If it's the latter I can imagine someone using a relay and timer to break the connection. If it's the former then it's time for someone to invent a little robot that suctions to the side of the car and can yank the cord when charging is done.
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No, yes, but if you do that the charging station cuts the power supply.
And that's why they charge parking and new stations are starting to have bollards and sensors in the parking space.
-Crissa
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I have not, I only charge my bike at home at the moment. So are there no stations where you can prepay for a certain amount of energy (or currently time)? Do all stations know that a vehicle is still connected but not charging? What about if a vehicle is set to only charge to a certain amount, once that amount is reached can it disconnect in a way that the station wouldn't be able to detect it?
Yes, you can disconnect at any time. Either from the vehicle or the "stop charge" on the machine. Most charge stations know if you're charging. Not all J1772's sense that you're no longer drawing any current., but perhaps most do. AFAIK, all fast DC chargers sense everything.
They all can tell if you're connected, even a J-1772. In the vehicle charger, there s a diode and a resistor that turns on the J1772. It has no power on it until it senses that from the vehicle. In the case of Zero motorcycles, the adapter plug for J-1772 has the diode an resister built in. So it actives even without a motorcycle if the Zero adapter is plugged into a J1772 with nothing on the other end.
DC charging is more fancy. It usually tells you the KW you're being charged with and how long you have been connected and other such info. You can set the vehicle to stop charging at any percentage you want or hit the "Stop Charging"" button on the charge station. IRRC with Telsa Spierchargrs, it all must be done from the car or the app. I don't recall any such buttons on Tesla Superchargers. But I have only used a Tesla Supercharger two times and I am not real sure about that.
-Don- Barstow, CA (RV)
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I am wondering if I read that incorrectly or if I forgot what year it was. I see now that it says stating in year 2021, so it looks like we will have to wait a while to see how this works out.
(https://electrek.co/2019/12/24/california-bans-per-minute-billing-tesla-superchargers-will-need-displays/)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Do they detect that the plug is physically inserted in a socket, or is it an electrical data connection? If it's the latter I can imagine someone using a relay and timer to break the connection. If it's the former then it's time for someone to invent a little robot that suctions to the side of the car and can yank the cord when charging is done.
Most stations detect the signalling lines, data connection, not physical plug.
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> I have not, I only charge my bike at home at the moment. So are there no stations where you can prepay for a certain amount of energy (or currently time)? Do all stations know that a vehicle is still connected but not charging? What about if a vehicle is set to only charge to a certain amount, once that amount is reached can it disconnect in a way that the station wouldn't be able to detect it?
Come on, man, you aren't supposed to stay plugged in, occupying the station. Let other people charge.
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> I have not, I only charge my bike at home at the moment. So are there no stations where you can prepay for a certain amount of energy (or currently time)? Do all stations know that a vehicle is still connected but not charging? What about if a vehicle is set to only charge to a certain amount, once that amount is reached can it disconnect in a way that the station wouldn't be able to detect it?
Come on, man, you aren't supposed to stay plugged in, occupying the station. Let other people charge.
It's not about hogging the station, it's about not being charged for being in the station once charging is completed. You can't always time getting back to the vehicle as soon as it's finished, which is why a lot of EV owners are fine with other people unplugging their vehicle once it's finished. The thing is if there's no-one there to unplug it and take over you then get charged, whether you're preventing someone else from charging or not.
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Charging stations know if you're using power and how much power you're using.
So if you stop charging, you use alot less power, and consequently get charged less.
But pricing schemes can be based on charging capacity, kwh consumed, per session, per minute, subscription, parking, or some combination of any of the above.
-Crissa
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The original thought was that they'd increase the waiting fee to make up for lost profits from no longer being able to charge by the minute and instead having to charge by the kW/h.
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I cannot unplug my Livewire until one of two things happen. One, it finished charging or two I wave the credit card (I phone) at it to stop charging.
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I cannot unplug my Livewire until one of two things happen. One, it finished charging or two I wave the credit card (I phone) at it to stop charging.
It must be like other EVs, so while charging, do this:
Put in key. Turn on bike.
Above may be all you need to do, but there also could be a menu, or if it's like my Energica, as soon as I turn on the key the screen shows: "Unlock Charge Port?, press mode to confirm".
It's the norm for them to lock until it is either done charging or stop charging early by using the key.
I am not familiar with the LW, but I will bet the instructions to stop the charge are in your LW Owner's Manual if the above isn't all you need.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I cannot unplug my Livewire until one of two things happen. One, it finished charging or two I wave the credit card (I phone) at it to stop charging.
"Fob present to unlock coupler"
per
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/1332049841313170639/BLAISE/1308558/en_US?uid=1308558&nid=32102
To access the above link, you may need to use a user-agent switcher to tell the website that you are using Firefox on Windows (using Firefox on Linux it told me my browser is out of date, but of course it is microsoft windows that is out of date imho)
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The original thought was that they'd increase the waiting fee to make up for lost profits from no longer being able to charge by the minute and instead having to charge by the kW/h.
That's a future change, not current.
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I cannot unplug my Livewire until one of two things happen. One, it finished charging or two I wave the credit card (I phone) at it to stop charging.
"Fob present to unlock coupler"
per
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/1332049841313170639/BLAISE/1308558/en_US?uid=1308558&nid=32102
To access the above link, you may need to use a user-agent switcher to tell the website that you are using Firefox on Windows (using Firefox on Linux it told me my browser is out of date, but of course it is microsoft windows that is out of date imho)
Oh yeah, I forgot the LW uses a FOB. But the same idea, bike must be on.
-Don- Reno, NV