ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: BigPoppa on November 05, 2019, 06:11:09 PM
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https://electrek.co/2019/11/05/new-2020-energica-electric-motorcycle-more-battery/
According to the article you’ll be able to order the bikes with either the original 13kw battery or the new 20kw battery. I’m hoping this means it’ll be possible to upgrade existing bikes relatively easily.
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Very impressive! It will be interesting to see how Energica prices the big-battery bike. I sure wish Zero would follow in their footsteps.
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No price change.
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No price change.
That can't be right. I tried to configure an Ego and the only option for $22k was the 11.7 kWh base bike. There is info on the 18.9 nominal but no pricing yet. Now if they leave the same $22k price for the 18.9 then what will the price be for the 11.7 bike?
Also will the base Ego use the same new battery tech to really lower the weight of the smaller battery option?
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All bikes are getting the 21.5 pack with the weight drop at the same price. Current models with the 11.7kWh pack will be priced to sell :)
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I know your more in the know than me, but that's what's on the site. An Ego with 11.7 and an Ego+ with 18.9.
I can certainly see them phasing out the smaller battery bikes as an option but if they can shave 100lbs off the old weight by having the new battery tech in just a smaller volume that could be a nice twisty track bike option.
All in all a great step forward for Energica and all electric motorcycles. Bravo.
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No price change.
If we may order either one, how can there be no price change?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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https://electrek.co/2019/11/05/new-2020-energica-electric-motorcycle-more-battery/
According to the article you’ll be able to order the bikes with either the original 13kw battery or the new 20kw battery. I’m hoping this means it’ll be possible to upgrade existing bikes relatively easily.
So now they are rating their batteries in max capacity, like Zero. Or are they? Isn't the "20KWH" battery really 21.5 KWH?
I assume the battery will still cost half the price of the bike. Even if we can upgrade, I wonder what happens with our old batteries.
I wonder if we should have waited a year . . .
The new battery is important to me because that should get me from Auburn to Reno with only home charging.
I will head back to Reno today on my Energica. I will need to fast charge near the summit.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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https://electrek.co/2019/11/05/new-2020-energica-electric-motorcycle-more-battery/
According to the article you’ll be able to order the bikes with either the original 13kw battery or the new 20kw battery. I’m hoping this means it’ll be possible to upgrade existing bikes relatively easily.
I just noticed that it says:
"The company’s line of electric motorcycles saw its first major update in years today as Energica has just revealed its new 2020 models with a massive increase in battery capacity and range."
We already have 2020 models! OTOH, I think all of Europe goes by the first date of sale. So our 2020 models are 2019 models in Europe.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I gotta say I've been a Zero guy since I bought my SR in January 2014, but Energica really seems to be heading in a direction I like. A bigger bike, more comfortable for us older gentlemen, with a larger battery AND DC fast charging.
I really wish they'd develop their dealer network in this country. Google maps tells me I'm 73.9 miles from the nearest dealer and I'm one of the luckier people in this country. I don't know if that's something I could work with. Prohibitive towing rates mean if my bike broke down and I couldn't fix it myself, I'd be looking at renting a trailer and a vehicle to tow it (though I could add a hitch to my RAV4). I'm 18.5 miles from my Zero dealer and that already seems like a pain.
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I really wish they'd develop their dealer network in this country.
When Laurence (From Energica in Redwood City, CA) was here to pick up my bike, I mentioned the many dealers who seemed to be very interested in carrying Energica. It kinda seemed to me that Energica is very picky on who they let become dealers after they apply to be such. Seems to me that Energica doesn't want to have many dealers in the USA, at least not too close together. And I think to them, "Too close" could mean closer than 150 miles or so. Perhaps they think it will take some business away from their other dealers, such as Ca Moto, where I got my SS9 from. But IMO, one of the main reasons Energica doesn't sell more bikes is because there are not many dealers in the USA.
Maybe all this will change when their demand goes up with their new 21.5 KWH battery.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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So now they are rating their batteries in max capacity, like Zero. Or are they? Isn't the "20KWH" battery really 21.5 KWH?
Every company has a 'max' vs 'nominal'. The difference is Zero's numbers tend to be heavily inflated. Zero's 14.4kWh is actually 11.628kWh nominal even though they list something like 12.6kWh nominal. The 11.7kWh in the Energicas we all have seems to literally be 11.7kWh. If you drain it all the way and give it a full charge it will accept ~11.7kWh. Feel free to test it yourself as well. Energica lists 21.5kWh max and 18.9kWh nominal I believe, so expect a real 18.9 from this.
If we may order either one, how can there be no price change?
As I understand it the existing 2020s will be subject to a price drop. The existing 2019s and before will be subject to an even more aggressive price drop. The new 21.5s will retain the existing prices. That's what I mean by no price change.
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Well, they haven't delivered any yet, so maybe they won't actually sell them in the EU until 2020. Half the remaining time would be shipping, anyhow.
-Crissa
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I suspect these will be hitting dealers sooner rather than later.
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Every company has a 'max' vs 'nominal'. The difference is Zero's numbers tend to be heavily inflated. Zero's 14.4kWh is actually 11.628kWh nominal even though they list something like 12.6kWh nominal. The 11.7kWh in the Energicas we all have seems to literally be 11.7kWh.
IOW, the 11.7 KWH battery in my Energica has more KWH than the 14.4 KWH from Zero.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Basically, yeah.
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I'd like to hear what kind of trade-in offers some of us will get when we're interested. Energica's plan is to relieve us of the sting if we decide to trade up to models with the bigger battery, after all.
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So now the charge to 80% is about 42 minutes? Which would be similar to SR/F premium (95% charged in 60 minutes), right? Though the range would still be about 25% more for the energica and 12kW is not so easy to get in the US from a single plug.
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Energicas can currently accept up to 26kW from DC stations. The SR/F can accept 6kW from level 2 stations. If you spend an additional $2300 and are in the EU you can get a total of ~12kW from level 2 stations.
Energica's 21.5kWh battery will be 18.9kWh usable and they seem to use actual real numbers. The SR/F's 14.4kWh battery pack is ~11.63kWh usable. And the SS9 has a lower starting price. *shrug*
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I'd like to hear what kind of trade-in offers some of us will get when we're interested. Energica's plan is to relieve us of the sting if we decide to trade up to models with the bigger battery, after all.
Same here. I definitely want to know what kind of options current owners will have. Upgrades and/or trade-ins. I did notice that they have keyless ignitions now so I'm beginning to wonder if any kind of battery/inverter upgrade will have to include the keyless ignition as well.
I think in either case it's going to be a pricey upgrade or we're going to take a hit on trade-ins no matter what. That being said, I'll probably be one of the first in line for one of the two options once they have EsseEsse9+'s available.
If I can get the larger battery, I'm getting rid of my Trophy since I don't tour anymore and 100+ freeway miles is plenty of range for me for both commuting and pleasure riding.
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Are we using the word "nominal" incorrectly? I looked it up, and the first definition is "existing in name only", which jibes pretty well with how I've always seen and used it. Seems to me that by that definition, my battery (a 2016 battery pack in my 2014 SR) is "nominally" 14.4 kWh, but actually ~12.5 kWh.
Perhaps a new adjective would be better.... maybe "nameplate" and "actual" capacities? "Claimed"?
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Very, very tempting... when are prices going to be released?
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Are we using the word "nominal" incorrectly? I looked it up, and the first definition is "existing in name only", which jibes pretty well with how I've always seen and used it. Seems to me that by that definition, my battery (a 2016 battery pack in my 2014 SR) is "nominally" 14.4 kWh, but actually ~12.5 kWh.
Perhaps a new adjective would be better.... maybe "nameplate" and "actual" capacities? "Claimed"?
Think of the terms as Gross and Net capacity. Gross is how much total kWh the cells in the battery have, and Net is how many you can pull out of the battery at the most. The lost capacity is hidden away to protect itself.
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Very, very tempting... when are prices going to be released?
Hopefully today but might be tomorrow. If you’re looking at the Italian prices and doing conversions, remember that Italy has a 22% VAT. I’m expecting US prices to stay the same or change a tiny bit at most.
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Are we using the word "nominal" incorrectly? I looked it up, and the first definition is "existing in name only", which jibes pretty well with how I've always seen and used it. Seems to me that by that definition, my battery (a 2016 battery pack in my 2014 SR) is "nominally" 14.4 kWh, but actually ~12.5 kWh.
Perhaps a new adjective would be better.... maybe "nameplate" and "actual" capacities? "Claimed"?
I think of "nominal" as in rocketry: A value within normal and expected parameters. There are always safety margins in rocket if you're sane, and you leave safety margins (extra capacity) in a battery if you're sane (want your battery to last at all).
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Hmm, 11.6 is 80% of 14.4...
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...and I'm once again a bit miffed at the motorcycling press. They fell all over themselves covering the HD LiveWire "Launch" yet here you have a manufacturer with proven deliveries that announces what is the biggest game changer in electric motorcycles and the best I could find were pieces buried in EICMA coverage.
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Maybe? They need to give more numbers, I think. HD trucked their bikes around to give lots of rides and promo materials which doesn't seem to be within Energica's reach.
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Think of the terms as Gross and Net capacity. Gross is how much total kWh the cells in the battery have, and Net is how many you can pull out of the battery at the most. The lost capacity is hidden away to protect itself.
Thanks for mansplaining that to this EE. Not the question I asked, though. I asked a question about the terminology we've been using...and I still think I'm correct. The word "nominal" refers to a name, not an actual thing. So my "14.4 kWh" battery doesn't actually have 14.4 kWh of capacity, that's just its name. Its true capacity is whatever it is.
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Thanks for mansplaining that to this EE. Not the question I asked, though. I asked a question about the terminology we've been using...and I still think I'm correct. The word "nominal" refers to a name, not an actual thing. So my "14.4 kWh" battery doesn't actually have 14.4 kWh of capacity, that's just its name. Its true capacity is whatever it is.
Your 14.4 is actually 11.628kWh
https://www.electric.motorcycles/post/how-oems-calculate-battery-capacity-and-why-it-s-not-totally-their-fault-they-are-wrong
edit- it should be noted that after that article was written we've done testing and it appears Energica's 'nominal' number listing is accurate. I did a 5%-->100% charge recently and it used 11.1kWH which is basically exactly what they claim.
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Thanks for mansplaining that to this EE. Not the question I asked, though. I asked a question about the terminology we've been using...and I still think I'm correct. The word "nominal" refers to a name, not an actual thing. So my "14.4 kWh" battery doesn't actually have 14.4 kWh of capacity, that's just its name. Its true capacity is whatever it is.
Many things have its own language, such as EVs and electronics. "Nominal" in electronics means the value where it is expected to operate at. In other uses, it can mean something else.
In fact, see here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_level)
"Nominal level is the operating level at which an electronic signal processing device is designed to operate. "
There it is talking about signals, not KWH, but the same principle applies in the same way in all of electronics. I have seen the word "nominal" used for the "as really used" value many times dealing in electronics.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I just found a better link here. (https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-batteries-understanding-batteries#)
"Nominal capacity (Ah) and discharge current (A)
Battery capacity shows how much energy the battery can “nominally†deliver from fully charged, under a certain set of discharge conditions."
-Don- Reno, NV
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But what is the difference between what goes in and what comes out?
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But what is the difference between what goes in and what comes out?
Heat loss from the internal resistances of the battery.
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But what is the difference between what goes in and what comes out?
Heat loss from the internal resistances of the battery.
And step value in the charger, as well as its own resistance and capacitance.
-Crissa
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And step value in the charger, as well as its own resistance and capacitance.
-Crissa
Yeah, the AC charger spinning its fan to reject all that extra heat, that's all energy you aren't getting into the battery :(. This is why I don't like charging at low power, the losses take up too much of the power you're pulling from the wall.
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Yeah, the AC charger spinning its fan to reject all that extra heat, that's all energy you aren't getting into the battery :(. This is why I don't like charging at low power, the losses take up too much of the power you're pulling from the wall.
Often that is because the 120 VAC chargers increase the voltage to 240 VAC which drops the efficiency, besides half the current.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I can’t ignore any electric motorcycle with 20kWh onboard, but I feel like this giant battery change has to involve some trade offs this article doesn’t cover.
Let’s find some article that describes the chemistry, see what warranty goes with it, and let a battery professional weigh in on what we can expect from these batteries.
I heard a mileage limit for the warranty thrown around that did not seem attractive for touring, so I feel like this might not be the magical touring machine recipe yet. The bikes are obviously built fine and have good numbers, but the designs show a track mindset that I can’t embrace.
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On the other hand, the pack might have decent longevity since you can charge to 80-90% and still get places.
I'm also curious about weight.
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AC to AC conversion is very efficient, and is not the source of much of the heat.
But yes, that's why there's a fan. ^-^ And charging at lower power means you lose more power to the circuitry - but as wires and components rise in temperature their resistance tends to increase (which is how fuses work). So sometimes charging at higher rates means you lose more x-x Darn environmental conditions.
-Crissa
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Higher voltage means more power a the same amps so make the electronics 1 kV! Porsche legit did this though, 800 kW is pretty damn sweet.
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My SR/F runs a fan when I first plug it in for about 7 seconds. Is it just a test, or are they venting
The battery?
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My SR/F runs a fan when I first plug it in for about 7 seconds. Is it just a test, or are they venting
The battery?
It's probably a simple 'fan is on when power is on' and then after the interface has booted up, it decides it's cool enough it can turn off the fan. It can't manage the fan speed until the controller finishes booting up and has polled enough sensor cycles, and that can take several seconds to several minutes (depending upon the clock speed of that controller times sesor poll period.)
No, I don't know anything about the SR/F, that's just how hardware programming works in general.
-Crissa
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I can’t ignore any electric motorcycle with 20kWh onboard, but I feel like this giant battery change has to involve some trade offs this article doesn’t cover.
Let’s find some article that describes the chemistry, see what warranty goes with it, and let a battery professional weigh in on what we can expect from these batteries.
I heard a mileage limit for the warranty thrown around that did not seem attractive for touring, so I feel like this might not be the magical touring machine recipe yet. The bikes are obviously built fine and have good numbers, but the designs show a track mindset that I can’t embrace.
Same warranty, cycle ratings for 2019 and 2020. Battery warranty (https://www.energicamotorusa.com/warranty/) is 31000 miles. Both years claim 1200 cycles to 80% remaining capacity. Older technology was NMC, don't think they've revealed what tech they're using now.
The absolute charge rate is down, both in terms of C rate and miles per minute. 2019 could charge 0-85% in 20 minutes at 26 kW, about 3 highway miles per minute charging.
2020 Energica+ charges 0-80% in 40 minutes - presumably at around 20 kW, or a bit over 2 highway miles per minute. Energica models prior to 2019 also charged at about this rate. Perhaps Energica will validate higher charge rates in time.
The situation feels very similar to the Hyundai Ioniq Electric - newer version has a ~35% larger battery but charges almost half the speed as 2019.
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The absolute charge rate is down, both in terms of C rate and miles per minute. 2019 could charge 0-85% in 20 minutes at 26 kW, about 3 highway miles per minute charging.
2020 Energica+ charges 0-80% in 40 minutes - presumably at around 20 kW, or a bit over 2 highway miles per minute. Energica models prior to 2019 also charged at about this rate. Perhaps Energica will validate higher charge rates in time.
The situation feels very similar to the Hyundai Ioniq Electric - newer version has a ~35% larger battery but charges almost half the speed as 2019.
My 2020 SS9 charges at (up to) 26KW. But I guess they mean the actual year, not what they call the model year.
But I cannot make any sense out of why a larger battery will only accept a lower charge rate. But your numbers don't seem to add up, 20 KW charging should not take more than twice as long as a 26 KW charge. But if it only charges at 12KW, Energica can keep their new battery, I won't want it.
BTW, the new charge times you're saying seems to match the Harley Livewire.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Energica have kept DC speeds safe. My guess: max charge rate around 27 kW ( claimed 82% faster than competition) and 80% in 40 minutes, which make around 22kW average. It could be that they keep some slack for warm conditions, where the old Eva tapered charge rate.
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80 amp request at a voltage between ~290-340. Tends to be around 26kW. Booyah
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Speaking of tapering charging: I was watching my Kill A Watt meter the other day as my 2018 Zero S with PT was charging with its on-board charger and it didn't taper off when the charging ended. The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering. So I have no idea when the cell balancing occurred, unless the bike decided that the cells were already balanced and there was no need to perform that step during the charging procedure. ??? My 2014 Zero S with PT would taper the charge for about 15 minutes to around 250 watts before shutting off.
Of course I understand that the Energica fast-charge system is much different and likely tapers the charge more for battery life than for balancing.
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Hey Richard same charging pattern with my 13 and 17 Brian Rice says it's all good. :)
But how do you feel about the bigger battery? Will there be a test ride in your future?
I love my Zeros and still ride and enjoy my 13 but for you guys in CA with all the DC charging it really does open up a whole new world of long weekend rides and highway commutes without having to baby the throttle.
Energica has done a great job and now we'll see if the others can match or beat it.
If they had an Atlanta dealership I'd love to test ride one. (Hint Hint) Big money on the north side and never a whole month that you can't ride.
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The absolute charge rate is down, both in terms of C rate and miles per minute. 2019 could charge 0-85% in 20 minutes at 26 kW, about 3 highway miles per minute charging.
2020 Energica+ charges 0-80% in 40 minutes - presumably at around 20 kW, or a bit over 2 highway miles per minute. Energica models prior to 2019 also charged at about this rate. Perhaps Energica will validate higher charge rates in time.
The situation feels very similar to the Hyundai Ioniq Electric - newer version has a ~35% larger battery but charges almost half the speed as 2019.
My 2020 SS9 charges at (up to) 26KW. But I guess they mean the actual year, not what they call the model year.
But I cannot make any sense out of why a larger battery will only accept a lower charge rate. But your numbers don't seem to add up, 20 KW charging should not take more than twice as long as a 26 KW charge. But if it only charges at 12KW, Energica can keep their new battery, I won't want it.
BTW, the new charge times you're saying seems to match the Harley Livewire.
-Don- Reno, NV
Energica refers to the new bikes as model year 2020 (https://www.energicamotorusa.com/energica-eva/). But you’re right, I’ve seen 2020 used to refer to bikes sold this year as well.
The average charge rate (C-rate) is halved, Energica claims 0-80% in 40 minutes (1.2C, ish). The previous bike claimed 0-85% in 20 minutes (2.55C, ish). In terms of actual miles gained per minute to mostly full, the old bike charges faster.
Assuming the charge curve is similar, that’s 26 kW x 160% battery capacity x ~45% c-rate = 18-20 kW.
But that’s a lot of assumptions without actually seeing the charge curve. My guess is it looks something like this:
10 minutes: old 35 miles, new 30 miles
20 minutes: old 60 miles, new 55 miles
40 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 90 miles
60 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 112 miles (full)
And yes, the new bike has similar C-rate to the Livewire, but the Livewire seems to be less efficient and has a smaller battery. It adds ~55 highway miles in 40 minutes.
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The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering.
The SOC indication may not mean much. 100% SOC is not always where fully charged, especially if the green charging indicator LED is still blinking instead of on solid. Or if the contactor has not yet opened.
Perhaps the sudden drop is when the charger switched from CC to CV.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Really good new re the battery...
That said, personally, I'm disappointed they now have 3 naked models, but no additional faired model except the Ego/Ego+ (and IME, adding a windshield to a naked bike is a poor substitute for a proper fairing -- even cockpit-only or quarter-fairing -- in terms of wind protection & fatigue over more-than-commuting distances.)
Re the price, on the international (Europe?) site (https://configurator.energicamotor.com/start/EO), the difference between Ego & Ego+ or Eva EsseEsse9+ and Eva EsseEsse9 is ~4500 Euros (*); that seems pretty reasonable to me.
Has anyone seen explicit drivetrain warranty info or weight specs info?
(*)oddly, the site says these are prices exclusive of VAT, which AFAIK is illegal in the EU for consumer-facing price info.
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Energica refers to the new bikes as model year 2020 (https://www.energicamotorusa.com/energica-eva/). But you’re right, I’ve seen 2020 used to refer to bikes sold this year as well.
The charge rate (C-rate) is halved, Energica claims 0-80% in 40 minutes (1.2C, ish). The previous bike claimed 0-85% in 20 minutes (2.55C, ish). In terms of actual miles gained per minute to mostly full, the old bike charges faster.
Assuming the charge curve is similar, that’s 26 kW x 160% battery capacity x ~0.45% c-rate = 18-20 kW.
But that’s a lot of assumptions without actually seeing the charge curve. My guess is it looks something like this:
10 minutes: old 35 miles, new 30 miles
20 minutes: old 60 miles, new 55 miles
40 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 90 miles
60 minutes: old 70 miles (full), new 112 miles (full)
And yes, the new bike has similar C-rate to the Livewire, but the Livewire seems to be less efficient and has a smaller battery. It adds ~55 highway miles in 40 minutes.
80% in 40 minutes on a battery almost twice the size of mine isn't all that bad, but I would expect a larger battery to allow more KWs of charging, not less.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The amps were increasing slightly as the SOC increased, until it almost hit 12 amps, at 100% SOC. After staying at 100%, for about 10 minutes, the charger suddenly cut off and dropped to 5 watts. No tapering.
The SOC indication may not mean much. 100% SOC is not always where fully charged, especially if the green charging indicator LED is still blinking instead of on solid. Or if the contactor has not yet opened.
Perhaps the sudden drop is when the charger switched from CC to CV.
-Don- Reno, NV
The green charging light goes solid as soon as the charger cuts power and goes into sleep mode (or whatever it does).
The problem that I have with fast charging is that I am too cheap to pay for it and don't want to wait more than about 5 minutes before I get antsy and want to get on my bike and go riding again. So a larger battery pack is what I want, but the Energica's 600+ pounds is just too much for me to handle at my age. Anything over about 450 pounds is becoming a struggle for me to push around my garage and up my driveway.
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So a larger battery pack is what I want, but the Energica's 600+ pounds is just too much for me to handle at my age. Anything over about 450 pounds is becoming a struggle for me to push around my garage and up my driveway.
Even with a reverse and slow forward as the Energicas all have?
Otherwise, I know what you mean. I wish my 1,000 lbs Harley had a reverse! But at least it is VERY easy to get on the (adjustable) centerstand. Harley does know how to do at least some things right.
-Don- Reno, NV
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They not only massively increased the range with this new model, but they cut the weight. I’m expecting the low 500s but it’s not official yet. Also we’re still waiting on finalization of US prices.
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If they can get it to ~530 lbs like a 5% decrease (from ~570 for the EsseEsse9, I've read) implies, that's really much better and a stone's throw (not literally) from a Premium SR/F. I'm curious why Energica is seemingly cagey with weight -- just because it looks bad? 'Cause they don't have it listed under dimensions on their page. It's a single weight too, no dry weight/wet weight/what kind of wet weight confusion to be had.
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If they can get it to ~530 lbs like a 5% decrease (from ~570 for the EsseEsse9, I've read) implies, that's really much better and a stone's throw (not literally) from a Premium SR/F. I'm curious why Energica is seemingly cagey with weight -- just because it looks bad? 'Cause they don't have it listed under dimensions on their page. It's a single weight too, no dry weight/wet weight/what kind of wet weight confusion to be had.
Energica has never listed weight as near as I can tell. I have four full-color brochures, one of which is many pages long and goes through every feature of their bikes, including a ton of specifications. But not a single peep about weight. However, I have read in a couple of written reviews that all of their models weigh over 600 pounds. I assume that the reviewers weighed the bike on their own scales. ???
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2019 Energica Ego weighs 645 lbs https://youtu.be/IZrHkzNlnRg?t=317
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RideApart says 570 lbs: https://www.rideapart.com/articles/253343/2018-energica-esse-esse-9-first-ride/
MCN says 595 lbs: https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/energica/eva-esseesse9/2018/
Motorcycle.com says 621 lb: https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/energica/2018-energica-eva-esse-esse-9-review.html
Ridiculous.
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RideApart says 570 lbs: https://www.rideapart.com/articles/253343/2018-energica-esse-esse-9-first-ride/
MCN says 595 lbs: https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/energica/eva-esseesse9/2018/
Motorcycle.com says 621 lb: https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/energica/2018-energica-eva-esse-esse-9-review.html
Ridiculous.
I agree. What do they do, spin a wheel and see where the pointer ends up? ::)
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How do you vary by 50lbs? I know options have weight, but... That's like another 3.6KW battery pack.
Aren't they required to tell you the weight for shipping and stuff? Like, you need to know this to put it on a trailer safely.
-Crissa
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RideApart says this battery has a lithium polymer (LiPo) chemistry.
The charging C-rate limit might relate to the volume of cells and how well they can be managed given the chemistry and its attendant properties. I still think this battery involves trade offs that they’re minimizing or hiding.
They’re using a real pack of production cells that must have a data sheet somewhere and related engineering knowledge. Lightning also claimed (officially or not) that their large pack involved LiPo cells. Maybe they’re chasing the same part of the engineering parameter manifold, but now we have two companies in the same year claiming a leap in pack size on an electric motorcycle they will put into production, without explaining how they did it even in vague terms, or indicating a supplier.
This isn’t a proud announcement, is what I’m inferring. It feels dodgy.
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Energica says they're using the cells they used in their race bikes.
So it's not as dicey as a company that hasn't produced more than a handful of street bikes.
-Crissa
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RideApart says this battery has a lithium polymer (LiPo) chemistry.
The charging C-rate limit might relate to the volume of cells and how well they can be managed given the chemistry and its attendant properties. I still think this battery involves trade offs that they’re minimizing or hiding.
They’re using a real pack of production cells that must have a data sheet somewhere and related engineering knowledge. Lightning also claimed (officially or not) that their large pack involved LiPo cells. Maybe they’re chasing the same part of the engineering parameter manifold, but now we have two companies in the same year claiming a leap in pack size on an electric motorcycle they will put into production, without explaining how they did it even in vague terms, or indicating a supplier.
This isn’t a proud announcement, is what I’m inferring. It feels dodgy.
I'm not a battery expert by any means, but IIUC, LiPo isn't a chemistry -- it just means the electrolyte is a polymer rather than a liquid, and can still be implemented in various chemistries. Typically, LiPo is used to make pouch-type cells -- making it easier to make constrained-form-factor batteries. My understanding that all else being equal, a LiPo battery will be lighter, but potentially more dangerous (no hard walls around each cell, and the cells are larger).
As for the announcement part, by various accounts they've been using this battery for the past 1-2 years in racing, and are now bringing it into street bikes. I hope they've done sufficient testing, and that there are no short- or long-term cooling issues, both for riding and DC charging. It'll be interesting to see what the cooling system's like, compared to the current bikes.
Hopefully they'll release more info soon.
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RideApart says this battery has a lithium polymer (LiPo) chemistry.
The charging C-rate limit might relate to the volume of cells and how well they can be managed given the chemistry and its attendant properties. I still think this battery involves trade offs that they’re minimizing or hiding.
They’re using a real pack of production cells that must have a data sheet somewhere and related engineering knowledge. Lightning also claimed (officially or not) that their large pack involved LiPo cells. Maybe they’re chasing the same part of the engineering parameter manifold, but now we have two companies in the same year claiming a leap in pack size on an electric motorcycle they will put into production, without explaining how they did it even in vague terms, or indicating a supplier.
This isn’t a proud announcement, is what I’m inferring. It feels dodgy.
Energica have been racing (read: abusing), these new batteries in the MotoE for more than a year, they know the importance of thermal management. Energica are apparently keeping the current charge speed (OK I also would have hoped for ~37kW), but given the fact that Energica have increased the CCS speed of the old battery pack twice (18kW->22kW->26kW), shows me that this company is cautious with over-specifying and do test things before they implement. That they don't show the specs of their cells I can imagine, they are a small company and have put much effort in composing the battery. With their patents they have already shown the pictures of their old cells.
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Here is more news from Energica. Note that no weights are provided, other than saying that these bikes will be 5% lighter than the last models. But 5% lighter than what? ::)
https://electricmotorcycles.news/energica-presents-at-eicma-their-new-my2020-models/
In other news: my "local" Energica dealer in Mountain View, CA, will be shutting down their shop on November 15 and moving their operations to their BMW and KTM dealership in Livermore, CA. That is too bad for me and likely many other of their customers in the Silicon Valley area. I have been buying motorcycles, parts and accessories, and having service performed at the Mountain View BMW (now called Calmoto) shop for the past 35 years. I am going to be really sorry to see them close, especially as Livermore is a long way to travel for me, considering the amount of traffic on the freeways between here and there. :(
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In other news: my "local" Energica dealer in Mountain View, CA, will be shutting down their shop on November 15 and moving their operations to their BMW and KTM dealership in Livermore, CA. That is too bad for me and likely many other of their customers in the Silicon Valley area.
A little better for me, since now they will deal with Energica in Livermore, which is closer to Auburn. But I would think they would sell more Energicas in Mt. View than Livermore. And Mtn. View is closer to their service center in Redwood City. IAC, They need a lot more dealers than they have now.
-Don- Reno, NV
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RideApart says this battery has a lithium polymer (LiPo) chemistry.
The charging C-rate limit might relate to the volume of cells and how well they can be managed given the chemistry and its attendant properties. I still think this battery involves trade offs that they’re minimizing or hiding.
They’re using a real pack of production cells that must have a data sheet somewhere and related engineering knowledge. Lightning also claimed (officially or not) that their large pack involved LiPo cells. Maybe they’re chasing the same part of the engineering parameter manifold, but now we have two companies in the same year claiming a leap in pack size on an electric motorcycle they will put into production, without explaining how they did it even in vague terms, or indicating a supplier.
This isn’t a proud announcement, is what I’m inferring. It feels dodgy.
Energica have been racing (read: abusing), these new batteries in the MotoE for more than a year, they know the importance of thermal management. Energica are apparently keeping the current charge speed (OK I also would have hoped for ~37kW), but given the fact that Energica have increased the CCS speed of the old battery pack twice (18kW->22kW->26kW), shows me that this company is cautious with over-specifying and do test things before they implement. That they don't show the specs of their cells I can imagine, they are a small company and have put much effort in composing the battery. With their patents they have already shown the pictures of their old cells.
Energica have been racing (read: abusing), these new batteries in the MotoE for more than a year, they know the importance of thermal management. Energica are apparently keeping the current charge speed (OK I also would have hoped for ~37kW), but given the fact that Energica have increased the CCS speed of the old battery pack twice (18kW->22kW->26kW), shows me that this company is cautious with over-specifying and do test things before they implement. That they don't show the specs of their cells I can imagine, they are a small company and have put much effort in composing the battery. With their patents they have already shown the pictures of their old cells.
I know these things. (I should have said LiPo-based chemistry or something, but I don't know that there's a good shorthand there.)
If they've been using the cells for a while, why aren't they indicating any detail about it? That just means they've had more time to justify the decision but aren't telling us what that justification is. I mean, right now we know as little about this pack as about Lightning's pack that they've failed to deliver. Additionally, the battery pack is the single most expensive component of the bike, and probably the majority of its cost.
They don't need to show us datasheets or hard numbers to justify that decision, and I'm not asking for that, but it's easy for a company officer to prepare a blurb that explains the shape of what challenges they looked at and why they feel this is a good way forward. I think EV companies need to be on top of that when they claim they have a battery breakthrough.
Energica has proven they're satisfied with it for their track bikes, and I accept that easily. However, track usage does not *necessarily* imply good value to their customers. We're talking about duty cycles here and the servicing cost over more than three years.
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Motor Cafe lost their lease and is still in limbo on moving, too.
Sure are losing alot of bike shops on the Peninsula.
-Crissa
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In other news: my "local" Energica dealer in Mountain View, CA, will be shutting down their shop on November 15 and moving their operations to their BMW and KTM dealership in Livermore, CA. That is too bad for me and likely many other of their customers in the Silicon Valley area.
A little better for me, since now they will deal with Energica in Livermore, which is closer to Auburn. But I would think they would sell more Energicas in Mt. View than Livermore. And Mtn. View is closer to their service center in Redwood City. IAC, They need a lot more dealers than they have now.
-Don- Reno, NV
Even in their home country, they only have two dealers. Only two in the UK. Three in France. Germany has seven, but otherwise looks like they're spread pretty thin at this point.
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Motor Cafe lost their lease and is still in limbo on moving, too.
Sure are losing alot of bike shops on the Peninsula.
-Crissa
I figure that it is the value of land around here. Who can keep a motorcycle shop open when the land is worth millions of dollars? And if you have a lease on the property, good luck renewing it for any amount that a motorcycle dealership can afford. In Calmoto's case, their property is located in a prime business location, near the freeway and on a major street. The shop owner owns the building and land. I have no doubt he will be getting a really good price selling his land to Google, Apple, Stanford University, or a big condo developer. (Condos are springing up like mushrooms in the area.)
I might add that he gave his customers (and perhaps his employees) just about a week notice that the shop was closing. :(
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The shop owner owns the building and land.
That means he is so rich that he probably runs his motorcycle shop as a hobby. I hear the shop that sells Zeros in Reno also has a ton of money. They bought out the old smaller shop and moved to a better location at least three times the size. That still really means it's not worth much of anything compared to the shop in Mtn View.
-Don- (Near RidgeCrest, CA <RV trip with Zero DS>)
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The shop owner owns the building and land.
That means he is so rich that he probably runs his motorcycle shop as a hobby. I hear the shop that sells Zeros in Reno also has a ton of money. They bought out the old smaller shop and moved to a better location at least three times the size. That still really means it's not worth much of anything compared to the shop in Mtn View.
-Don- (Near RidgeCrest, CA <RV trip with Zero DS>)
He also owns the entire block of buildings where the Livermore shop is located. The BMW dealership is located in one of the units in the very large building. My understanding is that he leases out the other units.
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We could use more condos, that's for sure.
The amount of storefront space that's empty is just obscene, honestly. It's crazy that our land prices have to get to this level of crazy before someone will take the risk to develop it when they could just sit back on the Prop-13 laurels.
*sigh*
Anyhow, the San Jose BMW shop is nice. Not quite as snazzy, but the staff is very polite.
-Crissa
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As mentioned previously in this thread, it appears they are using the redesigned battery casing and system from the Moto E race program. Energica claims the new battery is both smaller and lighter - presumably referring to the fully assembled module.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/motoe-energica-ego-corsa/
"Initially the Ego Corsa MotoE bike started out as an Ego road bike that was stripped of its road equipment," Testoni explains. "However, we quickly changed the suspension, chassis, battery, brakes, electronics and in the end the only part that remains the same is the electric motor and the chassis’ geometry.
"The MotoE bike’s battery is both smaller and lighter than the road bike’s but contains almost double the energy due to new cell technology while the electronics are also updated. In a few months of concentrated development on the Ego Corsa we achieved what would have taken us years of road testing."
...
"The MotoE bike can already exceed 167mph, weighs less than 260kg and its battery has almost double the capacity of the current production bike with just over 20kWh," he said, "And every year the lap times have to reduce to show MotoGP fans we are advancing.
"This technology will come back to the Ego road bike and in 2020 we will unveil a completely new platform of electric sportsbike based on the MotoE bike’s technology. We are aiming for a range of 125-miles irrespective of use with similar torque levels to the current bike."
A&R also had a chance to examine the Corsa bike.
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/energica-ego-corsa-photos/
Peering beneath the fairings, I could spot the absence of the grey cast aluminum battery housing, which has given way to a black plastic enclosure. I would wager 50 lbs is lost in this change alone. Of note though, the PMAC motor retains its cast aluminum enclosure.
A total bike 5% weight loss would be ~15 kg.
I can’t find any information on who supplies their battery cells - only a “Far East†manufacturer (presumably meaning S Korea or China).
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I visited the Calmoto shop today and the place was dead. It looked like half of the employees were laid off and the rest apparently are moving to their shop in Livermore, CA. The Energica's will be relocated to that shop and will be sold there. I am not sure what their plan is for servicing the bikes. Right now they are being trucked to the nearby Energica maintenance facility for servicing and repairs. The Livermore location is about an hour drive away - if the traffic isn't too bad (which it usually is). Attached is a photo of their showroom. The shop closes for good on November 15 and will be leased out to two different businesses, a martial arts gym and a Hertz car maintenance facility. (Or so I was told.)
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The Energica's will be relocated to that shop and will be sold there. I am not sure what their plan is for servicing the bikes. Right now they are being trucked to the nearby Energica maintenance facility for servicing and repairs. The Livermore location is about an hour drive away - if the traffic isn't too bad (which it usually is).
Lawrence from the Redwood City shop picks up the bikes in a van with his helper. They picked mine up from Auburn and brought it back to Redwood City and back to me in Auburn. They told me they have even gone to southern CA to pick up a bike. So Livermore will be nothing for them.
BTW, have you ever been to the Energica shop in Redwood City to take a look?
Energica Dealer and Service Center
815 Sweeney Avenue Suite A (Bay A)
Redwood City, CA 94063
tel. 415 243 6355
-Don- NewBerry, CA (RV)
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Very sad.... I bought my first BMW from Calmoto years ago.... Really liked them.... Always treated me right.... Wish the Livermore shop and Energica the very best....
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I have never been to the Energica service center in Redwood City. Maybe some day I will stop by.
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Lawrence from the Redwood City shop picks up the bikes in a van with his helper.
Don, The 'helper' you're referring to was the GM (Mr. Stefano Benatti). He's been the GM here in the U.S. since about Aug 2017.
We are extremely lucky to have both Mr. Stefano Benatti and Mr. Laurence Kuykendall (Marketing Director) looking after us.
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Don, The 'helper' you're referring to was the GM (Mr. Stefano Benatti). He's been the GM here in the U.S. since about Aug 2017.
We are extremely lucky to have both Mr. Stefano Benatti and Mr. Laurence Kuykendall (Marketing Director) looking after us.
Oh, I sure guessed that incorrectly!
-Don- Newberry Springs, CA (RV with Zero DS on ramp on the hitch).
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Don, The 'helper' you're referring to was the GM (Mr. Stefano Benatti). He's been the GM here in the U.S. since about Aug 2017.
We are extremely lucky to have both Mr. Stefano Benatti and Mr. Laurence Kuykendall (Marketing Director) looking after us.
Oh, I sure guessed that incorrectly!
-Don- Newberry Springs, CA (RV with Zero DS on ramp on the hitch).
Agreed! Laurence has been a great help with getting me to know the ins and outs of my bike!
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The amount of stuff the people in the Redwood City location get done is shocking.
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I'm always amazed at the level of customer service exhibited by Energica USA. Kudos to Laurence and Stefano as well as the rest of the staff in Redwood City.
I hope they're able to keep up the outstanding customer service. I'm definitely reassured on a regular basis that I made the right call in going with the EsseEsse9.
Looking forward/not looking forward to trading up to the EsseEsse9+ (or maybe even the Ribelle). ;)
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Any pricing yet?
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I've read unconfirmed reports that the pricing on the 21kwh battery bikes will be the same as last year while the 13kwh battery bikes will see a decrease in pricing. I think this was based on information from the European site but I'm not tech savvy enough to spoof my IP. The European site redirects me to the US configurator so all I see are this year's bikes and pricing. Maybe someone can figure out how to get the European pricing.
All that being said, I don't think there's any guarantee the US bikes won't see a price increase. I think we're going to have to wait and see what the US site says when it's updated for the new models.
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Here's Energica's official PR page for the EICMA / 2020 announcement:
https://www.energicamotor.com/13083-eicma-2019-my2020/
This firms up some range and power delivery claims, but not much else.
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This firms up some range and power delivery claims, but not much else.
"This new battery will be present on all the 2020 models,"
I guess my 2020 model doesn't count as being a part of "all".
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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This firms up some range and power delivery claims, but not much else.
"This new battery will be present on all the 2020 models,"
I guess my 2020 model doesn't count as being a part of "all".
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
“The Ego ed Eva EsseEsse9 models will be available in two versions: Ego ed Eva EsseEsse9 with the 13.4 kWh battery and Ego+ and Eva EsseEsse9+ with a 21.5 kWh power unit.â€
Seems like they’re still planning to offer two battery sizes.
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This firms up some range and power delivery claims, but not much else.
"This new battery will be present on all the 2020 models,"
I guess my 2020 model doesn't count as being a part of "all".
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
“The Ego ed Eva EsseEsse9 models will be available in two versions: Ego ed Eva EsseEsse9 with the 13.4 kWh battery and Ego+ and Eva EsseEsse9+ with a 21.5 kWh power unit.â€
Seems like they’re still planning to offer two battery sizes.
According to Energica's International (European) website, yes, for those models; not the Ribelle, which will have the larger battery only.
As I wrote above, the difference between the larger-battery ("+") and smaller battery versions is about 4500 Euros (pre-VAT).
Assuming equal availability, it'll be interesting to see how sales divide between the two variants.