ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: 06z on March 22, 2017, 06:22:25 PM
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:( :(
I have a PHEV car (ELR) and wanted very badly to get a 2017 DSR. Contacted my local dealer and had a test ride.
I test rode a 2016 DSR and really enjoyed it. Great power when fully charged, super quiet. Super smooth. So I asked if I could do a range test to see if I could make it to work and back without charging at work. Currently I can't charge at work. This sucks but it is what it is for now. In the next couple of years, chargers will hopefully be installed at work, but for now no luck.
Anyways, I am 5' 11' and 240#. I know, I know I need to loose a few pounds, ok quite a few pounds. I picked up the bike in the morning and I set it in ECO mode and off I went on my normal route to work. I rode it like a normal bike, no ducking my head down to be more aerodynamic or hypermiling. I was gentle on throttle response as I do have hills to climb and do have a lot of experience getting as many miles out of my car as i can. Mostly in the slow lane. I did feel a little uneasy as ECO mode limits the top speed to 70 mph but I know how much energy is used the faster you go. During my commute, (Early AM), traffic is going 75-85 on the freeway. Not having full power for a quick reaction for example, a piece of tire or a ladder is worrisome as on other bikes I have needed it on a few occasions. My total trip is 65 miles and I have about 3300 feet each of elevation gain and loss. I turned around at 27 miles as the battery was at 53% and I wanted to be sure I made it back. When I finished my ride, I had 11% left and it felt much slower than it did when it was fully charged which I do understand.
I thought about the power tank and DS screen but do not think this will be enough to get the trip done on sport mode without recharging at work. Losing 45#s would help too! :o If I was able to charge at work, I WOULD have one in my garage right now. I know I will get one if and when chargers are installed at work. I will keep my eye on these as they do make improvements yearly. So for now, I put my deposit on a 2017 KTM Super Adventure R.
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65 miles round trip?
If you need the off road ability get the 2017 DSR with powertank and it will boost range and low SOC power
If you don't need the off road capability get the 2017 S or SR as they have less rolling resistance and slightly less frontal area from a lower ride height and will get better highway range. And if you get the power tank on that you should have over 100 miles highway range.
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65 miles round trip?
If you need the off road ability get the 2017 DSR with powertank and it will boost range and low SOC power
If you don't need the off road capability get the 2017 S or SR as they have less rolling resistance and slightly less frontal area from a lower ride height and will get better highway range. And if you get the power tank on that you should have over 100 miles highway range.
I thought about the SR but I wanted the ability to do light off road, like fire roads. If you add the power tank then you can't have the charge tank. I want the charge tank because I have a level 2 at home for my car. Also as of now the tax incentives are gone as far as federal. $900 for California helps but the bike with a charge tank and a additional charger at home will probably be $20,000+ with taxes etc.
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Not even a standard mains plug accessible at work? Don't forget slow charging doesn't need a specific EV charger.
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Not even a standard mains plug accessible at work? Don't forget slow charging doesn't need a specific EV charger.
No, there is a outlet on the outside of the building but I was told no because others might be jealous. It is BS I know.
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Stupidest reason ever! I'd suggest offering to pay for the electricity used with a donation to a local charity. Guilt them into it.
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That is lame. For what it's worth, I have a similar commute and calculated the monthly power bill adjustment for my landlord at $25/month and will just add it to my utilities (the garage circuit being shared in my building).
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You don't need a real dual-purpose bike to ride fire roads. Hell, I ride dirt roads ALL the time on my 850 lbs K1200LT luxury tourer. I even ended up negotiating a two-track jeep trail with a passenger and full luggage up on the Gaspe Peninsula (an adventure my wife will NEVER let me forget).
If that's your only concern with getting the DS(R) over the S(R) then don't worry about it.
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You should quit! Or give me the number and I'll have speaks with them. You will be charging within the hour!!!
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I understand you needed both the charge tank AND the power tank. Most people want the security and freedom of both. Hopefully that will be an option when you are ready to trade in the ktm
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I understand you needed both the charge tank AND the power tank. Most people want the security and freedom of both. Hopefully that will be an option when you are ready to trade in the ktm
Now why would I trade in the KTM. The KTM works great for Baja California. I would just add a Zero to my garage. I can tell you now, I will get a Zero, I just need to wait a little bit longer.
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You should quit! Or give me the number and I'll have speaks with them. You will be charging within the hour!!!
Lol
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Are there any local businesses nearby that would consider letting you charge? What is the nearest EV charger?
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I understand you needed both the charge tank AND the power tank. Most people want the security and freedom of both. Hopefully that will be an option when you are ready to trade in the ktm
Now why would I trade in the KTM. The KTM works great for Baja California. I would just add a Zero to my garage. I can tell you now, I will get a Zero, I just need to wait a little bit longer.
06z,
I think you're making the right move by putting the Zero on hold - I have a new 2017 DSR up for sale now for the same reasons, it's just too limited to go on any rides or ventures. If Zero would have included the standard charging port like the Empulse it might be more attractive to guys living in the city, but even if they did, if you live in the country like I do its worthless. Unlike you're Cad ELR you don't have the option to just start the motor to charge the battery or just run on the generator.
While the DSR's 100 miles range sounds great in theory - the real way to look at it is in the actual miles you can venture from home - If it's over 40-50 miles you're out of luck which in bike riding is nothing, that for me qualifies as local riding since I live in a rural area. Charging on the road is not an option for me unless I'm willing to spend 2-5 hours charging on some 110 plug somewhere or carry a remote charger on the bike which again is "More" Money!
I too thought of the tank battery but that would run my cost up to $22,000 which is just too damn much money for a stripped down commute bike. At some point you have to snap out of it and think what you're doing. $20,000 will buy a lot of motorcycle, to help explain what I mean, a DSR with a battery would cost $22,000 - I just bought this beautiful 2017 American made Indian Chieftain, its loaded with ever option you could want on a bike for the same money! While I'm not saying this is the choice for an electric guy, I did want to show the two as an example.
Take a look at the two bikes side by side and you'll see what I mean. Good luck on your bike ventures - Mike
(http://www.com-pany.com/indian/chief/ch1.JPG)
(http://www.com-pany.com/indian/chief/z11.jpg)
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Stupidest reason ever! I'd suggest offering to pay for the electricity used with a donation to a local charity. Guilt them into it.
I have offered to pay but this is a small site for a very big company and they plan to install EV charging stations in the next few years. They are doing a chargepoint trial in the Portland site.
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Are there any local businesses nearby that would consider letting you charge? What is the nearest EV charger?
I actually charge my car but the charger is about 1.5 miles away at a park. I ride a little electric scooter from the park to work after I drop off my car. Not going to leave a bike there unattended.
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If you are only wanting the charge tank for the connector, then I *strongly* suggest getting a Power Tank instead and then using a J1772 or Menekies adaptor like one of these to charge from you homes' level 2 EVSE.
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product/custom-j1772-adapter/
This is what I do, I have a power tank on my SR, and charge off level 2 EVSE's using a cable similar to this one (mines a Menekies as J1772 connectors are obsolete here in the UK)
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If you are only wanting the charge tank for the connector, then I *strongly* suggest getting a Power Tank instead and then using a J1772 or Menekies adaptor like one of these to charge from you homes' level 2 EVSE.
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product/custom-j1772-adapter/
This is what I do, I have a power tank on my SR, and charge off level 2 EVSE's using a cable similar to this one (mines a Menekies as J1772 connectors are obsolete here in the UK)
What is the charge time with that adapter if the bike was at 10 % or so?
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No decrease in charge time if your only using the on board chargers. You can get the power tank and a supercharger in a top case and have your range and faster charging.
But the cheapest way is to look and see if you have a "back road" option to work. It will take longer, maybe quite a bit longer, but if you go 45-55 MPH for longer stretches you should have enough for a round trip.
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Thanks New2electric
I think that if they are able to increase the battery to 16 from 13 and have a charge tank option that would work for me. We are only about 6 months away from the 2018 models and I will just wait. These bikes have changed yearly. Let's see what changes come.
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If I use that cable and my off board Elcon charger, exactly the same as the charge tank.
Personally for long trips I don't consider the Charge Tank worth it, better with an Elcon or a Supercharger in a top box, and having a Power tank.
The charge tank is entirely off my radar until it supports fast charging the bike in under an hour, preferably using DC charging.
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06z, I applaud your "mission awareness". I wish more people would make a good effort to understand what an EV can and cannot do for them before they purchase.
That said, I'm a little surprised the DSR couldn't do the trip you asked of it. My daily round-trip is ~43 miles, I'm heavier than you (I'm a big guy, over 300#), and I regularly get home on my 2014 SR with more than 50% SoC left. Granted, I only have one medium-sized hill to climb, and you have a little more mileage than I do. How much of your ride is at freeway speeds? Mine is around 50% freeway speeds. That could make a big difference.
My first comment would be, don't underestimate the increased range you'd get with a good fairing/windscreen. I got more than a 20% range improvement when I installed mine. Ditto for reducing speed -- the speed vs drag curve is exponential with a big exponent (at least cubed). I keep my bike in sport mode, but exercise some restraint with my right wrist to keep my freeway speed between 70 and 75 most of the time. Also keep in mind that the faster your speed, the more effect a good fairing's going to have.
I was a little concerned about range before I bought my bike, and my local dealer wouldn't let me borrow it for a day to find out. At the time I was using mostly the freeway, about 50 miles round-trip. So after I bought the bike, the first day I rode to work, I kept the speed way down, no more than 65 on the freeway, and made it home with (IIRC) around 35% charge left. I increased my cruising speed to 70, and was still getting home with better than 20% left, which was my threshold for being worried about it. I was happy with that...but then I bought and installed my windshield, and things picked up considerably. I quickly found out that I could cruise as high as 75, which is about as fast as I generally want to cruise on the freeway anyhow, and I'd get home with 30% or more left.
Since that time, my battery was replaced with the 2016 version (which is 13kWh instead of the 11.4kWh I had), and I've found routes that get me off the freeway more both on the way to work and on my way home. Time spent is about the same, but the mileage is shorter and the speed is lower, which increases my range. I now do about 43 miles per day, and regularly get home with 50-55% battery capacity left. It makes a big difference when I have errands to run after work.
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Honestly you should check your state laws, I would assume that if Idaho and Washington where I live it's required for your employer to allow you to charge your EV, then California the pioneer state of EV's would have a similar law in place. I'm pretty sure your employer can't say no, and especially for such a dumb reason
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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06z, I applaud your "mission awareness". I wish more people would make a good effort to understand what an EV can and cannot do for them before they purchase.
That said, I'm a little surprised the DSR couldn't do the trip you asked of it. My daily round-trip is ~43 miles, I'm heavier than you (I'm a big guy, over 300#), and I regularly get home on my 2014 SR with more than 50% SoC left. Granted, I only have one medium-sized hill to climb, and you have a little more mileage than I do. How much of your ride is at freeway speeds? Mine is around 50% freeway speeds. That could make a big difference.
My first comment would be, don't underestimate the increased range you'd get with a good fairing/windscreen. I got more than a 20% range improvement when I installed mine. Ditto for reducing speed -- the speed vs drag curve is exponential with a big exponent (at least cubed). I keep my bike in sport mode, but exercise some restraint with my right wrist to keep my freeway speed between 70 and 75 most of the time. Also keep in mind that the faster your speed, the more effect a good fairing's going to have.
I was a little concerned about range before I bought my bike, and my local dealer wouldn't let me borrow it for a day to find out. At the time I was using mostly the freeway, about 50 miles round-trip. So after I bought the bike, the first day I rode to work, I kept the speed way down, no more than 65 on the freeway, and made it home with (IIRC) around 35% charge left. I increased my cruising speed to 70, and was still getting home with better than 20% left, which was my threshold for being worried about it. I was happy with that...but then I bought and installed my windshield, and things picked up considerably. I quickly found out that I could cruise as high as 75, which is about as fast as I generally want to cruise on the freeway anyhow, and I'd get home with 30% or more left.
Since that time, my battery was replaced with the 2016 version (which is 13kWh instead of the 11.4kWh I had), and I've found routes that get me off the freeway more both on the way to work and on my way home. Time spent is about the same, but the mileage is shorter and the speed is lower, which increases my range. I now do about 43 miles per day, and regularly get home with 50-55% battery capacity left. It makes a big difference when I have errands to run after work.
About 42 miles are on the freeway.
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At expressway speeds the 2017 DSR will use an average of 1% of battery per mile.
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Is the 2017 more efficient?
Could it be that the demo bikes calibration is off as it is only ridden short distances?
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From what I could see comparing specs, the 2016 and 2017 bikes, each equipped with the 13 kWh batteries, have the exact same range. The 2017 bikes seem to be somewhat more powerful, with higher hp and torque numbers, but the range hasn't changed.
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That's at about 55 mph. At 75mph, as the OP indicates traffic is moving for him, the use will be considerably more.
The table at Zero's web site is quite accurate (S and SR shown here), for steady speeds, no strong wind, and relatively flat bround: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr)
OP has a considerable elevation change, so he will use even more per mile.
At expressway speeds the 2017 DSR will use an average of 1% of battery per mile.
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That's at about 55 mph. At 75mph, as the OP indicates traffic is moving for him, the use will be considerably more.
The table at Zero's web site is quite accurate (S and SR shown here), for steady speeds, no strong wind, and relatively flat bround: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr)
OP has a considerable elevation change, so he will use even more per mile.
At expressway speeds the 2017 DSR will use an average of 1% of battery per mile.
I agree that the speed and elevation kill the range. It's the same with my car.
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Hopefully Zero are reading this forum, quite a lot of threads about quick charging option (directly or indirectly) which in my opinion is the only way to truly move the electric motorcycle market forward. Where would Tesla be without Supercharging?
Keeping my fingers crossed for quick(er) charging option in MY2018 :)
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but then I bought and installed my windshield, and things picked up considerably. I quickly found out that I could cruise as high as 75, which is about as fast as I generally want to cruise on the freeway anyhow, and I'd get home with 30% or more left.
Doug, what windshield did you install?
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WK36BS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WK36BS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
It was the biggest light-weight windshield I could find. It's old-school but it seems to perform very well and I've been very happy with it.
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WK36BS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WK36BS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
It was the biggest light-weight windshield I could find. It's old-school but it seems to perform very well and I've been very happy with it.
I like that one Doug, you got pics on your bike? How was install, lots of cutting/juryrigging or pretty simple?
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It was quite easy; it's a universal mount and didn't take long. IIRC I had to stop at the hardware store and get some fender washers for the headlight mounting screws, but that's all.
Here's my bike shortly after I had it vinyl wrapped. Purple isn't for most people but I love it. I was playing around with adjusting the angle of the windshield and had it very straight up in this pic. I've found it works best when leaned back a ways from that position.
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That's quite a lot of windshield 8)
Can you clarify if you are looking through or above the windshield?
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Over it. Only if I look down at the road pretty close in front of me do I see through it.
I wish it were higher. I still get a fair amount of wind on the top of my helmet, and I'm sure that represents turbulence, which means drag is higher than it could be. I don't see the purpose in a fairing or windshield that leaves large pieces of aerodynamically dirty surfaces (including the rider) exposed.
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I would not think it would look good but I like seeing some color on a bike.
I'll bet your range went up drastically with that shield - I seen a few extra miles when I installed my much smaller Zero touring shield.
Regards - Mike
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I'm not so sure... I would think you want the smallest profile possible to face the wind. Putting a big shield on it would just ADD drag, I would think... though the shield is probably more aerodynamic than the human body sitting in the saddle.
I went with the smallest "Commuter Shield" and just go into a Racer's Crouch on the highway. That has definitely improved my range at highway speed dramatically; even more so than assuming the crouch WITHOUT the shield.
That crouch isn't much different than the typical riding position on a bicycle with drop bars and I'm VERY used to that position.
When not in a full tuck, the commuter shield breaks up enough of the wind hitting my chest that I'm not exhausted at the end of my ride, too. In warm/hot weather with my mesh jacket on, it works wonderfully.
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I would think you want the smallest profile possible to face the wind. Putting a big shield on it would just ADD drag, I would think... though the shield is probably more aerodynamic than the human body sitting in the saddle.
That second thing you said. Aerodynamically speaking, "dirty" is at least as bad as "big". And anyhow, the frontal area of the bike (the silhouette you'd see standing in front of the bike) doesn't necessarily expand too much if you just cover the rider's silhouette. It just gets cleaner...the wind just sees the very clean shield rather than your more turbulent helmet. The manufacturers try to make helmets pretty clean, but there's a limit to what they can do given the general size and shape requirements, and what people will accept in terms of styling. But a fairing or windshield is very clean aerodynamically...that's their only job.