ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: stevewp on January 10, 2016, 03:55:42 PM
-
Some of you will have seen my findings so far on another topic
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5190.new;topicseen#new (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5190.new;topicseen#new)
But it seemed sensible to create a topic of it's own for this.
The summary so far:
I work 35 miles from home. The route I generally take involves a fair amount of dual carriageway and a decent amount of the rest of the journey allows me to ride at 60-70, so the majority of the ride is at speeds which rip through the range of the Zero. Here's a link to my route, with a little artistic license on the start and end points, for privacy.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/52.4419439,-2.1610694/52.1133346,-1.9407115/@52.1440648,-2.0769161,13z/data= (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/52.4419439,-2.1610694/52.1133346,-1.9407115/@52.1440648,-2.0769161,13z/data=)!4m14!4m13!1m10!3m4!1m2!1d-2.1399216!2d52.4328473!3s0x48709185c6aee6ef:0xa80538e4ac8eb9e3!3m4!1m2!1d-2.1451894!2d52.4173877!3s0x48709224b6ae880d:0x740462f26f00a660!1m0!3e0?hl=en
The first day, on my way in to work (temperature 2C) I left it in Eco mode and had 45% battery remaining.
On the night, in Custom mode with everything set to max, I had 33-35% when I got home. I had ridden it quite hard.
On the second morning, in Custom mode with the Closed Throttle Regen set to 0 (something I've read from owners as achieving the best efficiency) I had 37% battery remaining when I arrived at work. I had taken it fairly easy but not too ginger.
That night, I tried a different route
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/52.4419439,-2.1610694/52.1133346,-1.9407115/@52.2677068,-2.178059,13z/data= (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/52.4419439,-2.1610694/52.1133346,-1.9407115/@52.2677068,-2.178059,13z/data=)!4m19!4m18!1m15!3m4!1m2!1d-2.1399216!2d52.4328473!3s0x48709185c6aee6ef:0xa80538e4ac8eb9e3!3m4!1m2!1d-2.1451894!2d52.4173877!3s0x48709224b6ae880d:0x740462f26f00a660!3m4!1m2!1d-2.2126928!2d52.3475636!3s0x48708d31df9a6225:0x1c27e222fdd28546!1m0!3e0?hl=en
There is a lot less dual carriageway and the average speeds are lower.
On that night, the was a fair wind and torrential rain. I ran Custom mode with 0 regen on closed throttle again, but everything else set to max. I got home with 50% battery. I was very happy.
This morning, temperature was 4C. Stuck with the new route and used Eco mode. 40% when I got to work. This was probably the most disappointing result. I had hoped to achieve more in Eco mode than the previous night's Custom mode. However, there was no rain (the roads were wet though) and the traffic was very light (as you'd expect at 7am on a Sunday morning in winter) so I suspect I maintained a higher average speed. Careless, when I am testing but there you go.
Tonight I will likely try Custom mode with everything set to max again, on the new route. This will be my last test as the bike goes back tomorrow.
Now, providing I can charge it at work (I've been able to do so sneakily this weekend but, if I buy one, I will need a proper, sanctioned charging point), there is no doubt that this bike will work well for me. I do have a level of concern about the, albeit unlikely, scenario of being called back home straight away when I've got to work. As MostlyBonkers said in the original thread - I also have never had to turn straight round in all the donkeys years I've been commuting for but, with 5 kids, there is always a chance of it happening. However, I've proved that it CAN be done with 50% charge, so there is a safety net. Realistically though, I am unlikely to ride quite as gently as I did when I achieved that, on a normal day.
A power tank would probably see me just over that hurdle but at £2100, can I really justify that extra expense? Plus, this is a brand new bike. It only had 18 miles on it when I got hold of it. The battery is only going to deteriorate.
I do have to wonder if the semi-nobbly tyres on the DSR are the reason for reduced performance and range compared to the SR. With both bikes having the same power plant and being near identical in weight (5kg difference I think) why is it that both acceleration and top speed are down on the DSR? It can only be down to an inefficiency somewhere and the tyres seem to be the only real difference.
As for which of the two bikes I prefer, it's hard to say. I had a 2015 SR for one hour a few weeks ago. I absolutely loved it. But it's hard to directly compare the two when I haven't ridden them back-to-back and have had such different experiences on them both. If I were to be forced to make a choice, I'd probably go for the SR cos, on paper, it accelerates quicker, has a slightly higher top speed and has a slightly longer range. To my mind, you need to grab every advantage you can on this bike, when it comes to range. Or at least, you do if you're trying to do my journey.
As for the argument about regen on closed throttle - I get where the old owners are coming from, saying that you actually achieve greater efficiency when set to 0, but I don't like it and I haven't seen any improvement during my testing. I would just say it's down to personal preference. Try out different settings and see how you go.
This has become a real epic but I'm trying to be thorough and hope I haven't missed anything out. I have to say, Alex and Jason at Streetbike have been absolutely brilliant. Lending me a bike for 4 days is unbelievable and they deserve major praise.
-
Ah yes, one more thing to say - the range is the ONLY negative thing on this bike. Aside from that, it really is the most perfectly setup bike I have ever ridden. It pulls like a litre+ bike but handles like a 400/600. Everything works precisely the way you think it should, but rarely does on other bikes. There are no nasty surprises. Simply put - it's my favourite bike of all time. Apart from the range.......
-
Were just at the point where electric bikes are becoming a practical equivalent to petrol bikes.
Range will only get slowly better, there is a lot of improvements that can be made in Lithium batteries alone.
-
Yeah, I'm sure things will continue to improve as time goes on. Undoubtedly, waiting will allow me to buy a bike that will do the job. But, much like with pc's, mobile phones etc etc - there never really is a right or wrong time.
One thing going for the 2016 bike over last year's one is the temperature regulation. on the 2015 SR, the temp light was flashing for about 2/3 of my ride. On this bike, I haven't had it come on once. I have read that they've made improvements to it and it seems to have done the trick. Not that the flashing light caused me any problems (it only throttled me back once) but it's an indication that you haven't much left in the pot, so to speak.
-
Yeah Stevewp the tires on the DSR will bring your range down a bit but it also has a higher ride height which catches more wind, thats the real killer. I really like my DS wind screen it helps a bit with range but gives you a spot to tuck behind in rain and higher speeds. It also helps cover the dash if its sitting parked it the rain. I'd say ds is more comfortable and handles potholes and rough roads better and a little off road option may be appealing to some. If range is your main concern go SR. You could limit your top speed to 65MPH (I know not fun but better range). Enjoy which ever one you get. Oh and nice to hear about the new temp limits working in the real world even if it is winter.
-
I did think I got more wind blast but wasn't sure if that was psychosomatic as, when I rode the SR I was just having loads of fun, whereas the DSR rides have been much more practical. So I thought maybe I just noticed it more now. I think though that, if I do go for it, the SR will be my choice.
I think a screen would be good but I really don't like the looks of the Zero ones. Maybe I just haven't seen them from the right angles.
-
I bet if you ask the folks that maintain the building at your place of employment they will be happy to allow you to charge. I ride to three different locations for my job and each time I asked they were happy to see an electric bike and happy to show me where I could charge.
As far as the battery degradation - I had a 2012 Zero for three years - didn't see any noticeable range degradation (other than the 'normal' range loss during the winter). Likewise with my '15 SR, but I'lve only had it for one year. Others with 2013-2014 bikes haven't complained of range losses.
As far as wind-screens - I saw a noticeable improvement in range after adding one on my 2012. (My '15 had one when I bought it).
-
I have asked - I'm awaiting a reply......
It's good to hear you didn't see any drop-off. I hadn't expected the longevity of them to be quite so good - I had expected to see some sort of reduction in that timescale. So that's good.
Two people on the other thread said that they didn't see any difference in range with the cold weather. Which, again, is great as an owner, but dashed my hopes a little when I was excusing the poor range this weekend. What sort of losses have you seen at what temperatures?
How much is a noticeable improvement, would you say? I'd live with the ugliness for a decent improvement!
-
Just out of interest, how long does your commute take Steve? Mine takes 50 minutes to do 24 miles.
In your situation I'd be tempted to go back and ask Jason if you can borrow the SR for a day or two for a proper comparison. I'm sure they'll be happy to accommodate you.
You're the first person I've seen to report on the improvements with the IPM motor. Thanks for that. I think your commute warrants the IPM motor. Ideally I'd be getting a 2016 SR so I could continue using my M1 route rather than having to revert back to an older and shorter route that goes down the A1. I'll try both on the DSP I'm getting but I just know it won't cope with 80+ on the M1 for 20 minutes.
An Elcon might be the answer for you. Just make sure you can get access to two power sockets at work. It will give you a 3.7kW charge rate for less than a grand. You could leave it at work and it will enable you to do day trips if you sling it in a backpack.
Also, are you counting on the subsidy? If not, then the subsidy might pay for an Elcon or even a power tank.
-
You can always just pop some s wheels on it and have the best of both worlds
-
It takes a similar time to yours. It's a great run.
The SR was sold over Xmas so that's not an option unfortunately.
Will have to look into this Elcon. Haven't heard of it before. I will wait to see if the subsidy happens though it's not entirely dependent on it
Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk
-
Just out of interest, how long does your commute take Steve? Mine takes 50 minutes to do 24 miles.
In your situation I'd be tempted to go back and ask Jason if you can borrow the SR for a day or two for a proper comparison. I'm sure they'll be happy to accommodate you.
You're the first person I've seen to report on the improvements with the IPM motor. Thanks for that. I think your commute warrants the IPM motor. Ideally I'd be getting a 2016 SR so I could continue using my M1 route rather than having to revert back to an older and shorter route that goes down the A1. I'll try both on the DSP I'm getting but I just know it won't cope with 80+ on the M1 for 20 minutes.
An Elcon might be the answer for you. Just make sure you can get access to two power sockets at work. It will give you a 3.7kW charge rate for less than a grand. You could leave it at work and it will enable you to do day trips if you sling it in a backpack.
Also, are you counting on the subsidy? If not, then the subsidy might pay for an Elcon or even a power tank.
Its can probably hold 75 with no isses for 20 min
I was riding mine pretty hard didnt see the temp light but did see 170F on motor temp it would cool aoon as i dropped down to 75 ish from 80+
-
Tonight's ride left me with 42%. It was quite spirited with little traffic. Custom mode with max regen. I'm pretty happy with that tbh.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Thanks for that info Cortez.
Sounds like a fun commute Steve.
Here's a bit of info on the Elcon:
Justin's Elcon
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5224
I was thinking Streetbike are likely to get another SR in as a demo soon. Not yet then.
I'd be tempted to just do your commute for a few months and see how you get on. If you're still feeling a bit anxious about needing a couple of hours charge before riding home, then an Elcon would help. It will also give some time for the Diginow to come to market. That's a development well worth following. It'll be more expensive than an Elcon, but will be more versatile. You'll also be able to use it at fast charging stations and get up to 10kW. It's a game changer.
-
It is important to know the internal battery temperature (or what the bike thinks it is). If the bike is garaged and leaves the house at a 15C battery temperature, even in near freezing outside temps, I doubt the inside of the battery will cool off to anywhere near that cold temperature. I'd take stock in reports from folks who keep their bikes outside and assume the battery temp is known, not just the ambient temp. I'm willing to bet something inexpensive that those who do not see a range decrease have their batteries at near normal operating temperature despite the cold outside weather (or it isn't that cold outside for it to matter).
Two people on the other thread said that they didn't see any difference in range with the cold weather. Which, again, is great as an owner, but dashed my hopes a little when I was excusing the poor range this weekend. What sort of losses have you seen at what temperatures?
-
To my knowledge, they have no plans to demo an SR this year, though I may be wrong. They're running the DSR and (I think) an FX for demos.
The Elcon looks great. My only concern is that instances of battery explosions in electric vehicles always seem to involve fast chargers. Call me paranoid but.....
I think you may be right though. Just see how I go before taking any extra plunges.
Doing the maths, 60% usage on the standard battery equates to 51% usage when using a power tank. That's close enough for my liking 😉
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Yes, that makes sense.
It is important to know the internal battery temperature (or what the bike thinks it is). If the bike is garaged and leaves the house at a 15C battery temperature, even in near freezing outside temps, I doubt the inside of the battery will cool off to anywhere near that cold temperature. I'd take stock in reports from folks who keep their bikes outside and assume the battery temp is known, not just the ambient temp. I'm willing to bet something inexpensive that those who do not see a range decrease have their batteries at near normal operating temperature despite the cold outside
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
And why not go for an 13.0 S with powertank?
You will be able to complete the journey to work and home, and have some reserve in cold conditions and headwinds without charging at work, for a slightly higher price then an normal SR.
If you just fancy the SR for it's capabilities, you might buy a petrol bike with same performance for half the price of the SR and save enough money to buy petrol for years, and return home in minutes.
-
As for difference in range: a windscreen wiil gain some miles, other tires will not (have fitted Michelin Anakees III on DS, love them for other reasons), cold/warm conditions will do something, but not that much. As you know, speed is Zero's biggest enemy if it comes to range.
I drive my DS in eco 90% of time and still have enough power for normal traffic. In sportmode i think it's fast. If you look down, you will see that i was used to some horsepower...
Max acceleration of my DS is about the same as S with powertank fitted.
-
I'd be interested to try an S, to see if it's much slower.
And yes, replacing my ageing Pan with a newer petrol bike has crossed my mind but my heart's just not in it. I kinda want my cake and to eat it too lol
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I'd be interested to try an S, to see if it's much slower.
An S in Sport mode is similar(ish) to an SR in Eco mode.
-
That rules that out then
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Why else do you think I'm getting an SR... ;)
-
Lol
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
+1 for SR or DSR depending on preference. The only reason I'm making the compromise and dropping to DS is because I've had a very expensive year of motorcycling and just cannot afford exactly what I want. I'm jealous of whoever bought the ex-demo 2015SR. That was a great deal! Still out of my price range so I should just forget about it.
If I had your commute Steve, I'd be disappointed with anything less than what you have your sights set on. You obviously like to enjoy your rides to the max.
I shall be reporting on my commute on my DSP eventually, we'll compare notes and I'll be just a little bit green with envy whist you and Justin report on how much fun you're having on your bikes.
I can only hope that I'll be as happy as buurjit (spelling?) is on his DS and I can assure you the only time it'll be in eco mode is in heavy rain or when I've misjudged my range.
-
Okay, don't forget to put the sirens on then, when it's dry ;D
-
Don't get jealous just yet. If work won't allow me to charge or if finances just don't allow it, I'll be sticking with my lardy ST.
And boy does it feel lardy now compared with the DSR. For such a big bike it's always felt quick enough and more agile than you'd expect. But today it has no go, no stopping power and no ability to turn.
Or maybe I've just been very spoilt with the Zero this weekend
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I am not sure about the weather over the year is where you live, but, as it warms up, your range gets quite a bit better.
You can also do some tricks in your riding style to increase range. If you are getting this kind of range in freezing temperatures,
I would imagine that your overall range would suffice during the nicer weather.
-
The weather over the weekend that I had the bike wasn't great. 2C one morning. 4C the other two morning's. 5-7C on the evening's. Some strong winds, some torrential rain but always wet/icy.
Summertime normally sees 20-25C average. High winds not common. Rain.......well, this is England.....
Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk
-
Great wrap, thanks. I have found similar to most others and that is this; many small things make subtle differences to range. Ultimately, keeping that balance in check with the right combo of storage and or chargers will get the majority to most destinations almost all of the time. The simplicity, power and fun are worth the effort.
-
All being well, you'll be able to see how I get on with my commute during cold weather soon. I'm thinking about starting a new topic which will become a journal of my rides. If I can at least jot down my route, temperature and mileage, some patterns should emerge. Hopefully I will have done enough runs by March to make some conclusions. It might be June before there's enough data to compare a reasonable variation in temperatures though.
I'm going to be very interested in what range I'm getting as I won't be able to rely on charging at work. I'll be starting with the worst case for range; coldest time of year, wet and windy conditions. Brrr!
What is likely to make the most difference is an adaptive riding style and experience. I think commuters will get used to the charge levels they see at different points en route. If you find yourself chewing through the juice more than usual, there might be a headwind for example. By reducing speed and employing other tricks that will come with experience, I reckon it's possible to ride to your desired state of charge at your destination.
Better to be comfortable about your charging options though. That way you just ride the bike as you wish and not care about how much energy you're using. The relatively cheap cost of filling up is one of the main reasons for going electric.
-
I think that's a good plan. I wonder if it's worth compiling a spreadsheet logging each journey, recording a number of factors. At least for a bit.
But in reality, practice will be the main thing. We all adapt to different bikes quickly enough, learning their strengths and weaknesses. The Zero should be no different in that respect.
I'd certainly be interested to read your diary of rides though.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I suggest Logging distance travelled and journey time, as this informs average speed, which helps understand power usage.
We are lucky with electric bikes over petrol ones. Petrol bikes suffer the same sort of fuel usage dependent on speed, but its much much harder to assess how much petrol you used.
-
I was thinking along the lines of a spreadsheet too. I think I'd aim to capture the data in my notes app on my phone and hopefully collate it into a spreadsheet as a separate exercise later on. I know that if I try and update a spreadsheet every day it just won't get done. Outside temp, route (M1 or A1 in my case), mileage (covered by route type), State of Charge (SoC) at beginning and end of the trip, Notes. I think that should cover it. All I would have to write each time is: 7 A 100 54 'Wet, windy, caned it' for each trip, which I might just manage as I get off the bike. If I collect enough of those, I can analyse each route to see how many miles are done at different speeds. Traffic will make a difference, but the law of averages should win out.
The Zero DS is around 100kg lighter than my VFR with a full tank, so I'm looking forward to that too.
-
Top banana
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Other than the 300 mile drive home with my new Electric Focus, I have never had the NEED to be concerned about charging
options, any issues have been self induced. A thought did occur as far as the possibility of turn around range issue. Given that
you have a 35 mile commute, is there somewhere along the way where you can catch a few volts while having a coffee
or, snack? If I am going to be riding my FX around the valley, I will plan "snack" or, window shopping stops throughout the day.
Given that your 70 mile round trip is right on the edge of Zero's range limit, I would think that overall, you should be comfortably
within the range. I live 20 miles from work. I have various routes that I take to keep from getting bored. Fastest route is 5 miles of
stop and go, with 15 miles freeway and 1 mile of sub 25 mph to finish. This is the longest route ( 21 miles ), and, the fastest. Going
just over the speed limit, I can make it in 30 minutes. If rushed, and, take chances at every opportunity, I can make it in about
24 minutes. Next route is 7 miles stop and go, 12 freeway, and, the last mile as before. Cruising, this route takes me 35 or so minutes.
Other routs are all city streets, and, take 45 minutes to an hour. I have made the FAST route on my 3KW 2012 XU in 24 minutes with
the lights flashing upon arrival. This would calculate out to about 80 miles for 12 KW. A little less than the 2016 DSr has.
My 2013 FX 5.7 can make the FAST trip using just over half of the battery. I could make the 40 mile round trip with the XU using city
streets, and, the FX can do it twice ( 80 miles ) with some power left over, so, given the distance, even in an emergency situation,
you should be able to make it easily. If getting close, just turn down the "fun" a little and you should be fine. The details of the
"emergency" would be the only deciding factor. JR missed the bus, and needs a ride to school,adding 5 minutes to commute shouldn't
be that big of an issue. If you had a spirited ride to work, only to be informed that JR broke his arm and needs to go to the hospital
would be a different story. All in all, I think you will do fine.
-
https://youtu.be/tHf18CYvgl0
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Ok, that's brilliant Steve! [emoji4]
-
Just a bit of silliness
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Before I click play, will there be Episode VII spoilers ahead?
-
Lol. No. I need to buy one before I can do more episodes lol
Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk
-
That was awesome, Steve. And it reminds me to get my Tie Fighter noise maker fully installed soon.
-
When (if) I buy one, i'm going to make tie fighter stickers for the side of it
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
You can get them, I had the Imperial "Cog" on the side of mine... ;)
-
I make my own 😆
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
If I was head of Marketing at Zero, my job would be simple: Target Star Wars fans! [emoji6]
-
Ha ha ha ha ha
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I hope you all saw that Phreak's DSP has been named Darth Pom by his friends in Australia! [emoji4]
-
Lol
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I make my own 😆
Can you do colour?
If so we may have to talk. :)
-
Solid colour - yes. Printed colour - No. What are you after?
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
I was thinking this.
(http://knossos.firenebula.com/centurion/rl_logo.gif)
My plan is to get a Set of yellow Zero-S plastics for my SR (as I prefer the yellow) and put this as a vinyl after the S
(extra nerd points for getting the reference without looking it up... ;) )
-
I can do that easy 😉
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Is that dungeons and dragons or a similar role playing game? Just guessing I'm afraid. No nerd points for me!
-
Its from a series of SciFi Wargames produced by the same people who made Battletech.
Its from Renegade Legion to be precise.
-
Wow, that takes me back
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
-
Too obscure for me I'm afraid. I never got into those kind of games. It was always computer games for me. Perhaps I've missed out! I used to love reading role playing books when I was a kid: Turn to page 46 to head North into the cave... I also loved playing Twin Kingdom Valley on the Acorn Electron too. That's after waiting five minutes for it to load from tape!
-
Too obscure for me I'm afraid. I never got into those kind of games. It was always computer games for me. Perhaps I've missed out! I used to love reading role playing books when I was a kid: Turn to page 46 to head North into the cave... I also loved playing Twin Kingdom Valley on the Acorn Electron too. That's after waiting five minutes for it to load from tape!
Lone Wolf / Grey Star series of books? I spent way too much time playing and replaying through those as a kid.
-
I remember the Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy books. I had a pint with Ian Livingstone once, nice chap.
-
Lone Wolf rings a bell, but I honestly can't remember. Many happy hours though.
Don't forget the CBE Justin! Fantasy writer to CEO of a huge games company is rather impressive:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Livingstone