ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NEW2elec on December 04, 2015, 11:01:41 AM
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Ok feel free to laugh, shoot down, or just roll your eyes. What I'm thinking of would be way too complicated and much too expensive for practical use. More of a demonstration of what could be than what is a good product. Maybe Terry or Ben or some other iron butt could do it for records or advertising for Zero.
Basically a one wheel trailer with two 13kw monoliths and as much extra charging as possible. Charging each one with its own set of Digis or Elcons, $50k or more at this point. Regen from the trailer wheel would be a plus to help with the brake weight.
At least some front fairings and wheel and rear suspension upgrades, maybe two shocks mounted to the outer sides of the swing arm.
That support pipe going through the frame is what got my mind going to this. Distributing the trailer tongue weight through the frame by placing a pipe through the hole and mounting a V shaped trailer hitch frame to the back of the bike.
Now how to get the batteries all connected to the motor and play nice with three BMS's and a larger MMB and controller that would be up to you EEs. No big deal right? :)
Figure going about 58MPH across as flat and straight a path as possible. I'm guessing a little over 340 miles on a single charge. Find a location to plug three J1772's and fill all three in about 2 hours. Unhook the trailer between two stations and pull the bike up to a third.
Could go about 700 miles in a 14 hour day of riding.
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Trailers behind tourers are nothing new:
(http://www.mono-trail.co.uk/trailers/tourmax/images/bmw-motorcycle-trailer.jpg)
Terry added extra batteries and chargers to his bike so it can be done.
But instead of using a Diginow I would use a the space and weight for an extra block and use a DC inlet for fast charging on the way.
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Not crazy:
http://insideevs.com/nomadic-power-present-range-extender-trailer-wvideo/ (http://insideevs.com/nomadic-power-present-range-extender-trailer-wvideo/)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091768_ebuggy-electric-car-trailer-boosts-range-by-300-miles-looks-a-bit-silly (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091768_ebuggy-electric-car-trailer-boosts-range-by-300-miles-looks-a-bit-silly)
I'd like to see ZF3.3 Power Pack Modules supported in side cases.
However I do not know how Zero circuitry would cope with an aux battery, either as a source - or as an on the fly charger.
So I'd propose a motorcycle class pushing trailer upsized: http://ridekick.com/ (http://ridekick.com/)
My first EV build was a bike pushing trailer. Which I still think it is scalable to build a self powered trailer which carries its own load, and could "electrify" any vehicle.
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So what about a two wheel trailer where both wheels tilt like on the front of some scooters now, spring loaded to stand itself up, so it wouldn't feel "heavy" when you lean the bike over.
Hooking the extra power onto the bike would be easier if you could "charge" while riding, but the onboard charger has to be connected to power to make the auxilary plug work. And I am guessing that the throttle will be disabled while charging.
Interesting idea if you could rent one for a long ride. If you could store some gear in it would be perfect.
How about a V shaped frame that bolts onto the rear axle bolt on both sides and is spring loaded to allow the rear suspension to work. The spring has to be strong enough to hold the front hitch of the trailer up.
Doesn't hurt to dream/think of ideas.
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The range extending trailer is a great idea. There when you need it, but you are not hauling a boat anchor of a battery pack when you are only commuting 7 miles.
It could be a big battery or a oil burning generator set.
It's really the easiest way to do a battery swap as long as mechanical, electrical and software standards can be utilized.
This is something that you could rent from a "gas station"
Really with 170 mile/ hour charge rates, there is really less of a need of range extending.
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I love the idea of a trailer too! But for carrying my sleeping bags, tent, air mattresses, rain gear, extra clothes, pillows etc.
All lightweight fluffy stuff.
I personally would be nervous about batteries in a trailer because of the density and weight of batteries compared to my pillows, sleeping bags and clothes. I wouldn't want to have to brake hard going into a turn with a heavy trailer.
That being said, there are charging solutions now available that can make every Zero a touring bike.
If the range isn't enough for some reason, the easiest way to double or triple range is with aerodynamics. My last Vetter fairing bike had a coefficient of drag 3 times less than a standard Zero. I went over 300 miles at 70 mph. You would have to put a lot of batteries in a trailer to do that and it would be unsafe from being so heavy. I'd rather see you "rent" a lightweight aerodynamic fairing for a long trip than a heavy trailer.
If you have a 15 kWh Zero, adding a regular Vetter fairing or one like mine for a trip, it would be the same as carrying another 15-30 kWh in a trailer. Seriously heavy.
But the truth is, a 2016 bike with a powertank and one of the charging solutions Hollywood Electrics offers, can allow you to go pretty much anywhere. I plan on doing a cross country trip soon with just my 2015 Zero and a couple high power chargers.
When travelling, think more charging, not more battery. More battery only saves you time for the first charge of the day (the one you did overnight). After that, you would be better off charging quicker with less battery, than charging slower with more battery. ;)
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It's true that faster charging is better than greater battery capacity: once you have enough to ride between charging stations... I've been looking into the possibility of a cross Canada trip next summer and there are lots of spots in the prairies where I'd need 3x the range that my 11kWh battery pack could give me.
I don't know anything about motorcycle trailers. Do they usually have brakes (like some car tailers do?) Like Terry said: I wouldn't want to carry a lot of extra weight without also increasing the braking power of the bike/trailer system...
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I personally would be nervous about batteries in a trailer because of the density and weight of batteries compared to my pillows, sleeping bags and clothes. I wouldn't want to have to brake hard going into a turn with a heavy trailer.
Sorry - I left that off my original post - Spent some time as a long haul trucker - so I'm used to the trailer yanking me around. Just Eastern US 'mountains' so nothing big, but with a Detroit diesel which has little to no back pressure.
With many modifications discussed for faster chargers - options for packing in more batteries must have a niche in the travel distance, travel time and safety formula.
Commuter Trips - stock batteries, stock charger.
Weekend sight seeing - stock battery faster charger.
Slightly more distance with less time - trailer battery.
Slightly more distance with prep time - Fairing.
(or does the trailer battery go here?)
Cross Country Trips lotta prep time, much travel time - more Chargers.
Hurried Cross County trips lots and lots of prep and planning time - Fairing and more chargers.
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Of course I would rather not be burning fossil fuels but given the current state of battery technology and cost....if I was gonna pull a trailer for touring it would be far more economical to put an ICE on the trailer. The bike would have to have an added signal that would allow the bike to move while plugged in but only when connected to the trailer.
Putting more batteries in a trailer means more time recharging whereas having the ICE means quick refuel and you don't have to hunt for an outlet to refuel. You could opt to only run the ICE when the bikes battery isn't enough to make it to the next station. Of course, pulling the extra weight means shorter range with battery only. But the ICE wouldn't need to be very big.
With a 6.5kW generator you should be able to go over 500 miles at 70mph before you would need to refuel. This is just a very rough calculation.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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Better responses then I thought, so not completely crazy, always nice to know. Seems a bit ridiculous of me to say since I can never make this thing but keep in mind three different charging stations three different plugs and three different monoliths. However fast you can charge and however far you can go on the bike alone "almost" three times as far with the trailer. Yes much much heavier but weight from batteries is the best use of weight. Electronic braking on the trailer not too hard to do and might need a second brake rotor on the front wheel. Looking to set a "longest distance on an electric motorcycle on a single charge" record and "farthest distance in a 12 hour day" record. Showing more miles than most people would ever want to travel on a motorcycle to shoot down the "but I can't tour on one" crowd, and you would be able to actually feel your hands without all the vibrations when you were done. Oh and Terry you and Ben and the other iron butts are great ambassadors for electric motorcycles thanks for the miles and pictures. :)
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I woke up and was looking out the window and it hit me, HUB MOTOR, for the trailer wheel. Extra push for uphill and regen braking for downhill, stopping, and power generation. Set up gyros to tell the trailer to turn on the motor at a certain incline and play with the regen level so it wouldn't be an anchor being pulled or a rolling boulder behind you if you need to stop quick or going downhill. I read from some of you on here that it's possible to charge through the controller. Plug the trailer batteries into the controller with parameters defined as to use the trailer batteries first so if you needed to drop the trailer off to charge you could ride the bike around town and just charge it over night at a hotel. So Zero shows a carrying capacity of 361lbs on their SR lets say a 180lbs rider I figure 100 or so pounds for an empty trailer 400lbs for the batteries and maybe 60 or so for the chargers. Now is that 361lbs because of the suspension or the motor? A truck can haul more than it can carry in its bed because the springs can only take so much weight on them but what could Zero's motor pull?
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But still every kilo of battery is a kilo that you can't spend on food/sleeping bags/whatever.
Unless you're doing really extreme like an iron butt, charging and aerodynamics are the key. With even a modest fairing you should be able to ride 2-2.5 hours and at that point it is time for a break anyway.
Start the charging process, take a piss, get a drink and in 20-25 minutes you're good to go again.
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I'd like to see ZF3.3 Power Pack Modules supported in side cases.
However I do not know how Zero circuitry would cope with an aux battery, either as a source - or as an on the fly charger.
On the fly battery charging is probably not a good idea.
Fundamentally multiple monoliths, each with a BMS, would be little different from the single-brick BMS pairs in the FX line, or even the monolith BMS + power tank brick BMS available in the S line.
I like the idea of rentable touring equipment; Zeros have enough range and charging capability now for most "daily" rides. Today this is probably best served by a quick-connect fairing and a high-rate onboard charger with a tail mount; imagine a DigiNow SuperCharger rentable from your electric motorcycle dealer for $50/day. This would be an excellent way not only to extend trips, but also to allow people to trial these features and see if they wanted to use them full time.
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Trailers behind tourers are nothing new:
(http://www.mono-trail.co.uk/trailers/tourmax/images/bmw-motorcycle-trailer.jpg)
Terry added extra batteries and chargers to his bike so it can be done.
But instead of using a Diginow I would use a the space and weight for an extra block and use a DC inlet for fast charging on the way.
Hey, Erasmo, what trailer is that?
The other single-track trailers I've seen are axle-mount, i.e. unsprung weight.
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As I was discussing with Harlan Flagg this past weekend, I think a lot of people have the idea that electricity is some kind of black magic. What makes me say that is the initial post regarding putting a generator in the trailer that is powered by the rolling wheels to recharge the bike.
Back to High School Physics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. A generator takes mechanical energy and converts it into electricity. If you drag a trailer behind your Zero, and those trailers wheels are running a generator, it is the Zero providing the mechanical energy to drive those wheels. That means some of the electricity you have available to power your bike is being siphoned off and converted back into electricity.
Since you are only using PART of that electricity to drive that generator, you will NOT get back enough power to keep the battery charged. Only part of that energy is used to drive the generator, the rest is used to move the motorcycle, so right there you only have a fraction of the original energy to turn back into electricity.
You also have frictional and mechanical losses involved with dragging around a heavy generator, so that is even more wasted energy. Resistance in the wiring will also reduce the total amount you are getting back into the motorcycle's battery. You would get farther down the road by ditching the generator/trailer altogether and just using the available stored energy in the battery to do what it was designed to do: Propel you and the motorcycle down the road.
Think of electricity like money. You go around throughout the day spending paper money and pocketing coin change. At the end of the day if you're like a lot of people, you dump that change into a jar. It doesn't matter how much change you dump into that jar, it'll NEVER equal the amount of paper money you laid out initially... it's just "what's left over." You may eventually convert it into paper money to make it easier to carry around, but it'll never equal what you initially paid out to acquire that much change.
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As I was discussing with Harlan Flagg this past weekend, I think a lot of people have the idea that electricity is some kind of black magic. What makes me say that is the initial post regarding putting a generator in the trailer that is powered by the rolling wheels to recharge the bike....
Doh, I should have re-read the original post.
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Trailers behind tourers are nothing new:
(http://www.mono-trail.co.uk/trailers/tourmax/images/bmw-motorcycle-trailer.jpg)
Terry added extra batteries and chargers to his bike so it can be done.
But instead of using a Diginow I would use a the space and weight for an extra block and use a DC inlet for fast charging on the way.
Hey, Erasmo, what trailer is that?
The other single-track trailers I've seen are axle-mount, i.e. unsprung weight.
It's from Mono-trail.
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As I was discussing with Harlan Flagg this past weekend, I think a lot of people have the idea that electricity is some kind of black magic. What makes me say that is the initial post regarding putting a generator in the trailer that is powered by the rolling wheels to recharge the bike.
Back to High School Physics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. A generator takes mechanical energy and converts it into electricity. If you drag a trailer behind your Zero, and those trailers wheels are running a generator, it is the Zero providing the mechanical energy to drive those wheels. That means some of the electricity you have available to power your bike is being siphoned off and converted back into electricity.
Since you are only using PART of that electricity to drive that generator, you will NOT get back enough power to keep the battery charged. Only part of that energy is used to drive the generator, the rest is used to move the motorcycle, so right there you only have a fraction of the original energy to turn back into electricity.
You also have frictional and mechanical losses involved with dragging around a heavy generator, so that is even more wasted energy. Resistance in the wiring will also reduce the total amount you are getting back into the motorcycle's battery. You would get farther down the road by ditching the generator/trailer altogether and just using the available stored energy in the battery to do what it was designed to do: Propel you and the motorcycle down the road.
Think of electricity like money. You go around throughout the day spending paper money and pocketing coin change. At the end of the day if you're like a lot of people, you dump that change into a jar. It doesn't matter how much change you dump into that jar, it'll NEVER equal the amount of paper money you laid out initially... it's just "what's left over." You may eventually convert it into paper money to make it easier to carry around, but it'll never equal what you initially paid out to acquire that much change.
Glad to see my old post stirring some interest (even if it's just for a cargo trailer)
To clear up one point though I never thought I could regen from the trailer to power the bike for a trip.
A hub motor for the trailer would help push the, much heavier, total load up hills. The regen is just to help stop this increased load the smartest way possible.
The idea was to tour Yellowstone park or the appalachian trail or somewhere you just don't want to stop and charge. Burn through the trailer batteries, unhook and charge it while going around town on your bike's power.
But batteries are still too heavy and expensive to do this but maybe soon.
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> Glad to see my old post stirring some interest (even if it's just for a cargo trailer)
: - )
> To clear up one point though I never thought I could regen from the trailer to power the bike for a trip.
> A hub motor for the trailer would help push the, much heavier, total load up hills. The regen is just to
> help stop this increased load the smartest way possible.
> The idea was to tour Yellowstone park or the appalachian trail or somewhere you just don't want to
> stop and charge. Burn through the trailer batteries, unhook and charge it while going around town
> on your bike's power.
> But batteries are still too heavy and expensive to do this but maybe soon.
I don't know. As there are more EV cars around, there are more EV car
crashes and more high-density used lithium batteries available. : - )
So, no, not "too heavy", and more supply should mean lower prices.
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As I was discussing with Harlan Flagg this past weekend, I think a lot of people have the idea that electricity is some kind of black magic. What makes me say that is the initial post regarding putting a generator in the trailer that is powered by the rolling wheels to recharge the bike.
Back to High School Physics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. A generator takes mechanical energy and converts it into electricity. If you drag a trailer behind your Zero, and those trailers wheels are running a generator, it is the Zero providing the mechanical energy to drive those wheels. That means some of the electricity you have available to power your bike is being siphoned off and converted back into electricity.
Since you are only using PART of that electricity to drive that generator, you will NOT get back enough power to keep the battery charged. Only part of that energy is used to drive the generator, the rest is used to move the motorcycle, so right there you only have a fraction of the original energy to turn back into electricity.
You also have frictional and mechanical losses involved with dragging around a heavy generator, so that is even more wasted energy. Resistance in the wiring will also reduce the total amount you are getting back into the motorcycle's battery. You would get farther down the road by ditching the generator/trailer altogether and just using the available stored energy in the battery to do what it was designed to do: Propel you and the motorcycle down the road.
Think of electricity like money. You go around throughout the day spending paper money and pocketing coin change. At the end of the day if you're like a lot of people, you dump that change into a jar. It doesn't matter how much change you dump into that jar, it'll NEVER equal the amount of paper money you laid out initially... it's just "what's left over." You may eventually convert it into paper money to make it easier to carry around, but it'll never equal what you initially paid out to acquire that much change.
Glad to see my old post stirring some interest (even if it's just for a cargo trailer)
To clear up one point though I never thought I could regen from the trailer to power the bike for a trip.
A hub motor for the trailer would help push the, much heavier, total load up hills. The regen is just to help stop this increased load the smartest way possible.
The idea was to tour Yellowstone park or the appalachian trail or somewhere you just don't want to stop and charge. Burn through the trailer batteries, unhook and charge it while going around town on your bike's power.
But batteries are still too heavy and expensive to do this but maybe soon.
Okay, I misunderstood. That makes more sense but you're still hauling around a lot of extra weight.
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Range loss due to weight be made up for by the aero gain of continuing the ideal teardrop shape.
Would have to do the test to know.
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Glad to see someone made something like I wanted for the bike even if it's car sized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb7vg08zluQ
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Cool link. Half or quarter pack ought to be doable for a motorcycle. But you'd have to do more fab- this guy was able to use the whole pack.
I love the idea of solar storage trailer providing capacity for the house but also being able to go on the road.
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I interpreted the "generator" flight of fancy differently, as a fossil fuel powered generator.
The 46 lb honda inverter might be just right:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Honda-2-200-Watt-Super-Quiet-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Inverter-Generator-with-Eco-Throttle-and-Oil-Alert-EU2200i/304205470?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-206192156-_-304205470-_-N
Light, relatively quiet, clean power output, could recharge the Zero stack overnight. 46 lb compact generator plus a few lbs of gasoline - just a few lbs more than a power tank, and you can go a few days without seeing an electrical outlet. Maybe get up in the middle of the night to refuel the generator. It could work.
If you have the charge tank, diginow, etc, Honda makes more powerful - and heavier - quiet inverter generators that could recharge faster, but the weight penalty is at least an additional 45 lbs.
I have zero experience towing a trailer with a motorcycle. But I do know towing a trailer, even a light trailer with a car just kills gas mileage.
Yes this is all fanciful. The OP proposed a thought experiment. Go with it!
Hopefully nextgen batteries will be a leap forward, and viola we get our cake and can eat it too. Just hoping.
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Oh man getting closer still! Although he did this in 2017 and a little too lite for motorcycle use it's on the right track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiJUBJLQb6o
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>Oh man getting closer still! Although he did this in 2017 and a little too lite for motorcycle use it's on the right track.
Well, the thin flexible solar panels are getting better. Maybe it'll be practical to have a good area of solar fold out from a trailer soon.
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Yes it's still car sized but they are putting it into a business use so i think it was a good idea just ahead of it's time. :)
https://europe.autonews.com/blogs/french-startup-uses-battery-trailers-cure-ev-range-angst
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Cute idea!
-Crissa