ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: benswing on December 16, 2014, 09:28:53 AM
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It appears as though our friend Brandon Miller, aka the Electric Cowboy, has been busy developing a charge tank that fits Zero Motorcycles. Looks like it is about 4.1kW of charging power.
Here is a link to a photo on his facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203227137380194&set=a.10201925855008948.1073741834.1261517185 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203227137380194&set=a.10201925855008948.1073741834.1261517185)
This is an exciting development.
Brandon, are you sure you can't squeeze in 2-3 more kW of charging so we can use the full potential of public J1772 plugs? ;)
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Very interesting, I'll be keeping an eye on this.
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Charging at 4.1kW will be really amazing.. ! Everybody that experienced fast charging are very happy and this really change the experience on the Zero.
Charging at 6.6kW is ALSO really amazing =)))) 8) even when I add the onboard charger I get 7.6kW witch take about 2hours to fully charge my usable 13kWh on my 2012 S. ( my ZF15 upgrade)
Believe me guys when you taste what it is you just can't go back and just use a 1 or 1.3kW charger!!!
When I get a 30A J1772 station I use my triple stack meanwell for 6.6kW and when there is 40+ A available on the J1772 I also connect the onboard charger for a total of 7.6kW.
This way, travelling with the zero become realistic!
What Brandon is making by installing high power in the gas tank is a very good idea!. On my side I use a tank bag to stack the 6.6kW charger I have build. My choice was to not have to protect against water infiltration, moisture and high vibrations. I just have remove the charger when I want to.
Brandon will need to work serious on the electronic of the charger for protections.. well depending on witch kind of charger he install.
I recommend to everybody to think seriously about that great idea of getting a high power charger! the nexts rides you make will be just better! you feel juice is everywhere, no more worrie.. no need to wait houres even an entire day before continuing your ride!
Doc
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Unfortunately, the most places I ride only have 120 VAC @ 20 amps available (a standard outlet). :'(
My most recent experience, however, was an interesting one. I rode to a wind farm for a tour and while there my FX was recharged by wind power. Still, it was from a standard 120 V outlet. They ran an extension cord out of the maintenance shop. I was surprised that a generating station with over 100 turbines didn't have a single outside power outlet.
They did confirm that all of my recharging power came from the wind turbines and none from the utility they sell power to. That was a first for me. So now I have recharged the FX from a high mountain spring powering a small turbine and a wind turbine. Next I need to look for a solar charging source.
Trikester
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2.6kW from two QuiQ's and the FX's onboard charger is a nice rate for a full 5.0kWh charge in an hour. If I were putting something together for the FX I would want at least that onboard. This has probably been mentioned elsewhere but have safe max charging rates been established given unlimited 120/240V wall power? (For S/SR/DS vs. FX packs.)
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Anyone look at using a Zivan SG6 for a charge tank? There is a 96V version, it's programmable, IP65 (no weatherproofing necessary), only 5 kg and the dimensions look good, you could get two in there to get 4.4 kW (5.8 kW in conjunction with the onboard charger)...
http://www.zapiinc.com/sites/default/files/zivan_scheda_SG6OK.pdf (http://www.zapiinc.com/sites/default/files/zivan_scheda_SG6OK.pdf)
Would have to orient the heat sinks outward to allow for efficient cooling but from what I can tell it looks like a good candidate or am I missing something?
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Wow that does look good
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That white on black printing is terrible for a brochure. Can some one explain the charge times.
G6MHQ9-12000Q
Model Type: 96 21
Input: 230Vac 15A
Output: 96Vdc 18A 21Amax
Charge Time: 85 ÷ 130, 145 ÷ 175, 185 ÷ 200
Looks like the case is the heatsink. You need to vent the bottom of storage container, mounting two back to back on ducted heatsink with fan cooling.
HH8530 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HH8530)
here is the SG6 Manual .pdf
Manual SG6 CAN (http://shop.asmokarts.com/attachment.php?id_attachment=27)
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Just a reminder for those contemplating building a charger for the Power Tank compartment. You can not charge at 6.6kw from every L2 station. If you build a 6.6 kw charger you are going to need to have it set up to be able to charge at reduced levels. With my SR I have 2 2500 watt Elcons and can use the internal charger for a total of 6300 watts max. But sometimes when I plug all of that in I will trip the breaker on the L2 station. So sometimes I have to disconnect the internal charger and can only charge at 5000 watts. Had a Blink system that I had to go down to 3800 watts which is one Elcon and the internal charger. Until Blink upgrades their L2 systems with a power cord that can actually handle 6.6 kw without overheating you will not be able to charge at 6.6 from any of them. Eaton systems work great and most will charge at 6.6 kw but have come across a few that I had to drop down to 5000 watts.
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Thanks for the input on substandard L2 stations, I guess it would make sense to put a switch to select which chargers to operate at different stations.
I like the ducted heat sink idea, another thing I noticed was the low power factor (0.66).
How problematic is that?
Will it only result in a higher electric bill and/or will I have to increase the current capacity of the input circuitry to accommodate for the unused AC as well?
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The low PF shouldn't effect the power cost but it will impact the size of wiring and breaker needed.
Trikester
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;D I'm glad to see everyone is finally getting on the fast charge band wagon! I built my first charge tank on Turbo, the 2013 S. It has gotten better since then and will be ready for purchase after we test the final prototype for a bit. Were building a final prototype in the next month. I think this will be the 4th edition prototype now. I just got in a bunch of parts from china and am waiting on a few more from the US for the build process. The charge tank is really optimal for everyday use. I have ridden all over California with it and now that its out for race season, I miss it sooooo much! It only takes about 20 min to put in or pull out so if I have any trips coming up, I'll be re-installing it. I currently have NO chargers on my bike, one at work, one at home and some at hollywood electrics.
The sizes available for the tank will be :
640 watts (just a little booster) 8.2 lbs
1280 watts 16.4 lbs
1920 watts 24.6 lbs
2560 watts 32.8 lbs
and these all work with the on board charger so you can add an extra 1300 to them each. The levels should all be safe for every J1772 station and still get you charged up in ~2 hours under most circumstances, if you run a 2015 down to 0% it will still be less than 3 hours to full. I tested ;)
All of which are lighter than the power tank which weighs in at over 40lbs.
For those who already have a power tank and want a good solution, in the next few months we will be starting on a charger to help with that too. Just having discussions on how to proceed with it now so it may take a few months of development and another few months of testing.
My Odometer reads over 9K miles on my SR now since I got it!
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Those figures will be useful when calculating shipping rates to the UK... ;)
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[The charge tank] will be ready for purchase after we test the final prototype for a bit. Were building a final prototype in the next month. [...] I just got in a bunch of parts from china and am waiting on a few more from the US for the build process.
Thanks for the info and for getting back to me. I'm really excited about a tank charger. I asked Harlan about the 2500W Elcon charger and he said that: "It's possible to get the charger to fit underneath the tank with a little trimming of the heatsink." but the dimensions are 352mm×195mm×139mm and I seem to be about 100mm shy in length.
What charger does the 2560W use and what are the dimensions? Do you have pictures?
Cheers!
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Cowboy, what input voltages will be supported?
I'd be very interested in the 2kW unit and I'd probably add a toggle switch for slow (stock charger), fast (tank charger) and faster (combined) charging selection depending on the infrastructure available...
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Color me interested too, Brandon! The "gas tank" area seems like prime real estate on these bikes, and higher-capacity charging seems like a better use for that space than a few more batteries. Sweet solution; do you know where the price points are going to be? I'd want as much horsepower as would fit in the available space.
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Cowboy, what input voltages will be supported?
I'd be very interested in the 2kW unit and I'd probably add a toggle switch for slow (stock charger), fast (tank charger) and faster (combined) charging selection depending on the infrastructure available...
On your 2013 it will slide right down in there perfectly. You'll need a little better securing than 2014 & newer models as the basket gives a perfect secure fit.
Cowboy, what input voltages will be supported?
I'd be very interested in the 2kW unit and I'd probably add a toggle switch for slow (stock charger), fast (tank charger) and faster (combined) charging selection depending on the infrastructure available...
What voltage do you need? Right now we have 116-118v support but can support a wider range if needed.
Color me interested too, Brandon! The "gas tank" area seems like prime real estate on these bikes, and higher-capacity charging seems like a better use for that space than a few more batteries. Sweet solution; do you know where the price points are going to be? I'd want as much horsepower as would fit in the available space.
Price points aren't set yet. Give Harlan a call about them. Totally agree about better use of space. Charging faster is so much better than a few more miles and a longer charge time, for me anyway.
-Brandon
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Would be great to have a 240V AC version for Europe, Australia, Asia, Africa, etc
The toggle switch idea is great idea too.
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Would be great to have a 240V AC version for Europe, Australia, Asia, Africa, etc
The toggle switch idea is great idea too.
Yes, indeed we can take just under 100v to just over 300v. On the original tank, I would bring an extra bike to the race and use it to charge my bike through the chargers from my power tank. I would remove them for the race but still use them at the track for charging. Was very handy incase I had a nema 14-50 or RV plug.
-Brandon
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I don't know, but I would think the problem with those chargers for use outside of North America is not to do with input voltage, but with the power connector. One would have to have a Mennekes inlet on the charger to work with common European car chargers, for example.
That is one great thing that is unique about CHAdeMO, it uses the same connector/inlet form no matter where you are on Earth.
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Changing the input AC connector is easy, and like Doc and Burton do, you want to be able to make adapters to suit what is locally available.
Australia has 240Vac 10A domestic and 240Vac 15A at caravan parks and also can be installed at home or work for high current loads like electric welders.
public charging is very rare, but it slowly happening as a few Nissan Leafs and Mitusbishi imev and Volts are sold. Tesla will also start sales soon.
No Governemnt rebates or incentives, they get too much tax from fuel to encourage not to use it. :(
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Any prices??
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I would prefer to have a secondary charger that can be quickly mounted when needed or removed when not. I would hope for recharge time (20-80%) of one hour. I would really like a rear-fender rack that could hold a secondary charger for weekend rides; weekdays the rack could hold my lunch bag.
Waiting for the DSR with onboard level 2 charging. I'm patient.
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I would prefer to have a secondary charger that can be quickly mounted when needed or removed when not. I would hope for recharge time (20-80%) of one hour. I would really like a rear-fender rack that could hold a secondary charger for weekend rides; weekdays the rack could hold my lunch bag.
Waiting for the DSR with onboard level 2 charging. I'm patient.
I completely agree. 6.6kw is overkill to always have on the bike. I would like to see the quick charger be removable and be an accessory. This would help lower the baseline price of the Zero. Most of the time I would not have it on the bike. But it would be nice to attach it for a road trip.
Using the current onboard charger is also easier on the battery. I would be curious to know how much extra life could be squeezed out of the battery if the bike is charged at only 1.3 kw for its whole life as opposed to 6.6 kw for its whole life.
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Is there anything out there that can replace the stock charger with something faster? I am not sure if it's impossible to fit, say a 2500 watt charger in place of the 1300 but if we could come up with something like that I would be really interested. I am growing to like the storage of my tank bag. If I had to go with the tank charger I would like something that is removable as well.
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I am growing to like the storage of my tank bag.
If you like the tank bag, I have two words for you: Trunk. Okay, I have one word for you.
Seriously, the trunk is far larger, easily and quickly lockable (I hate that stupid tank bag lock), and just generally far more useful. I'm a big fan of Electric Cowboy's tank charger, though Doctorbass has me seriously considering rolling my own now. Decisions, decisions.
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Yeah I guess I just don't really want a trunk at this point. I like the clean look the way the bike is. I agree the tank bag is cheap and should have a hard locking lid but I do like having a small spot for storage when other similar bikes do not.
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Fast charging is not an issue, what kills li-ion is charging to full. If you don't charge to full battery life improves greatly. Also less time getting to full is better.
At full charge lithium metal and other cell impurities is deposited on the carbon electrode. This reduces electrolyte access to electrode, it eventual forms a barrier and loss of electrode use.
This is why EV never fully charge and discharge to cell limits, but some % like 10% to 90% of cell capacity.
Video below explains how li-ion cells die and also how chemical additives improve cell life and efficiency.
https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs
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For me, the ideal set up would be:
- A 2500W tank charger with a J-plug that also allows the onboard 1300W charger to connect for total charging speed of 3.8kW.
- Plus an extra 2500W (Elcon?) charger that is removable for longer trips, which would bring the speed up to 5 kW or 6.3 kW
The way I see it, the big advantage of the tank charger is not only to reduce the "stock" charging time by a factor of almost 3, but also to give the option to use level II chargers when needed, and all that without having to add and remove anything to the bike. But then, when going on a longer trip, that's when I'd add the extra charger... That's almost like having your cake and eating it too. ;)
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A Mennenkes style plug and faster charging is becoming a must have item for me.
I'd happily have one of these tanks and refit the J1772 plug (which have been phased out in the UK) for a type 2 plug (which are J1772 compatible).
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I cut a cardboard box to the size of the Elcon 2500 charger to see what the size would look like on the bike and added a few pictures here: http://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/zerodsmods#charge_tank (http://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/zerodsmods#charge_tank) Spoiler Alert: it doesn't fit in the tank...
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Can someone from the EU post a photo of the EU common charger?
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Common charger or common plug?
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I was looking at the underside of the tank in your pictures and wondering if the meanwells would fit on either side of it. I know they aren't weather resistant but might be something to look into and we could keep our tank bag still. ;D
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I was looking at the underside of the tank in your pictures and wondering if the meanwells would fit on either side of it. I know they aren't weather resistant but might be something to look into and we could keep our tank bag still. ;D
All four meanwells fit on the top of the battery just fine on my 2013.
Put down some velcro on top the battery and on the bottom and inner sides of your chargers if you do this as they will slide around. This is if you laid them flat and no on their sides; something I haven't tried yet.
It should be noted as well you can flip all your electrical connections from behind the battery to on top the battery even with the chargers in place as described above.
My bike would still be like this if I didn't move the chargers to the bottom of the bike to keep the weight lower :)
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Does anyone know the specs of those original meanwells?
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Does anyone know the specs of those original meanwells?
I think they are HLG-320 (look on the charger themselves they will have the model number on them)
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Thanks!
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Can someone from the EU post a photo of the EU common charger?
(http://www.mennekes.cn/uploads/RTEmagicC_MENNEKES_Steckerschema.jpg.jpg)
Wikipedia article on the VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 plug above, which is, more or less, our version of J1772.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196)
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That's your typical Mennekes plug used in poles like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/egUqXmJ.jpg)
Which are pretty common in city centrers and places like malls nowadays(at least in The Netherlands).
But there's also a new type of charging station being rolled out now, Fastned:
(http://www.groen7.nl/files/2014/fastned-laadstation.jpg)
Their coverage is growing by the week and they now already cover pretty much the most important freeways:
(http://www.zerauto.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/fastned_kaart1.jpg)
The offer not only Mennekes but also CCS and Chademo, the latter two up to 50kW!
(http://i.imgur.com/ieshCYO.jpg)