ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on March 13, 2014, 04:15:30 AM
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Ever since I got my new "power tank" my bike has stopped charging at an indicated 98% (13 kWh). If you pull the charging plug out and then plug it back in, the charger will continue to charge for another 10 minutes, or so, until it reaches 100% (13.22 kWh). The only reason that I can think of for this change before the tank installation, when the bike would charge to 100% before turning off, is that my bike received the latest and greatest Zero firmware at the same time.
I now believe that this is a deliberate programed change to prevent the regen from cycling on and off when the battery pack is completely topped off during the first few miles of riding. I noticed this morning that, even in Eco mode, the regen acted normally while coasting down the hill while leaving my home when the charge display was reading 98%. However, when the pack is showing 100%, the regen cycles on and off (you can see it on the display, as well as feel it), while riding downhill with the throttle closed. So the update solves that issue (if it ever was an issue).
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My suspicion is that you're better off not worrying about that top 2%, and let the bike do what it does.
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My suspicion is that you're better off not worrying about that top 2%, and let the bike do what it does.
I wasn't worrying, I was just curious why the charging program had changed and was trying to think of a reason why the change had occurred. I just like to know the reason why everything happens. ::)
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Richard,
I am seeing similar things on my SR. Sometimes you check on it expecting it to be fully charged only to find it isn't and still has a long way to go. But unplugging everything and plugging back in kind of resets everything and suddenly you at at 100%.
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Richard230: I think that's a reasonable explanation.
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When I plug the SR in at night, one night it will be 99% and the next it will be 100%. I don't try to pull the plug to get to 100% maybe I should try that and see what happens. I hope it is just a miscalculation on the MBB and not something bigger ::). Anyway I love the bike so far. Richard I don't think it is limited to the power tank addition everyone else is getting this problem.
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I have seen this on my FX 5.7 as well.
I don't think it is a problem.
It could have something to do with multiple BMS computers in one bike as well..... if you have a power tank you have a BMS in the powertank and one in the main bike. In the FX there is a BMS in each power module.
If I am up to 98% I am at peace. : )
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Could it be that it's still balancing the cells?
I leave my SR on the charger overnight (outdoors) and I've never seen it below 100% in the morning.
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I just never saw this phenomenon when the bike was new and before the power tank was hooked up. It would top out at 100% ever time. Now it goes up to 98% and stays there for a day or two, then it goes to 99%, but sometimes it hits 100%. Kind of random and a little strange, but I don't see any negative effects.
You can tell when the batteries are being balanced. The power draw drops to around 4 amps and the light display in the BMS window kind of dances around. When it stops charging and balancing at 98%, the power draw drops to 4 watts, so I don't think it is balancing then.
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Could it be that it's still balancing the cells?
I leave my SR on the charger overnight (outdoors) and I've never seen it below 100% in the morning.
I get home at 10pm plug it in and in the morning around 9am it is still at 99% :(
... When it stops charging and balancing at 98%, the power draw drops to 4 watts, so I don't think it is balancing then.
Doesn't non-balancing mean a problem? ???
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I see the BMS balancing right before it stops charging at 98%. I don't think there is any problem.
Plus, the app shows that the batteries are withing 2 or 3 mv when charging is done, so that is a pretty good job of balancing. After arriving home from a long ride, the balancing part of the app shows 13 to 14 mv.
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OK, I give up. I bought a new Kill O Watt (figuring that the old one was malfunctioning) and gave it a try yesterday, after an 80-mile ride where (according to the Zero app) I used 9.5 kWh of power out of my 13.2 kWh pack. I plugged the charger into the Killer at 2:15 pm and I checked it at 10:45 pm. By then it had finished bulk charging, the display showed a 99% charge, and it was balancing the pack. (It has these little white lights that blink alternately, one in the center and two at the edges of the BMS inspection window when it is tossing electrons around from cell to cell.) The KOW showed the power used through the meter was 9.14 kWh, compared with the Zero showing the battery power having had 9.5 kWh replaced. (So we know that something is not kosher between these two devices when measuring power.) Oddly, the previous meter showed 4 watts when the monitoring system was on and the new meter is showing 2 watts, with the charger plugged in and nothing happening.
So I have concluded that the Kill A Watt and the Zero BMS system calculate power consumption in different ways. And that sometimes you are better off not having too much information. The more dials and indicators that you look at the more confused you become. I think I just won't think about it any more. No doubt I can find something else to think about soon. ::)
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ZF14.2 is rated at 12.5 kWh nominal capacity. Is the Zero app stating capacity at 13.2 kWh?
The Kill-o-Watt measures AC power and energy at the wall plug.
I would expect the Zero BMS to report energy consumed/charged into the battery via coloumb counting. It's possible that instead it's measuring and reporting kWh in expected AC energy consumption, and if so then it's apparently pessimistic.
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Watts flowing through the kill o watt are not 100% converted into battery power. There are losses...
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When fully charged to 100%, my Zero battery app shows either 13.22 or 13.33 kWh. When charged to 98% it shows 12.99 kWh.
Since I only paid $20 for the Chinese-manufactured KAW, I assume that its accuracy is probably not up to laboratory standards. ::)
I am pretty sure that my battery charger is not more than 100% efficient. And I am willing to point the finger at the Kill A Watt, rather than the Zero BMS - which no doubt was designed and built to a higher standard.
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Richard230,
Did your bike ever get back to charging the pack to 100%? When my Power Tank was first installed it showed 100%. After the first charge it only went to 99%. Then down to 98%. Right now this morning my battery is at 95% and won't charge any more. Not a good trend.
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Richard230,
Did your bike ever get back to charging the pack to 100%? When my Power Tank was first installed it showed 100%. After the first charge it only went to 99%. Then down to 98%. Right now this morning my battery is at 95% and won't charge any more. Not a good trend.
My charger cut-off is going in the other direction. When the power tank was first installed, it would stop charging at 98%. Since last week, the charger is now cutting-off at an indicted 99%. But if you leave the charger connected for another day or two, it will suddenly pop up to 100%. So I guess this issue is being resolved by the BMS or charger over time, at least for me. On my bike the charger has never cut off at anything less than 98%.
Perhaps installing the additional battery module, after the original batteries have been used for a period of time, causes the BMS or charger cut-off algorithm to be confused, until the new module gets dragged down to the level of the original batteries? ??? Or maybe the BMS or charger just needs to get used to having more batteries than it had before? ??? But what do I know? I am great at theories, but not so good with facts. ::)
However, I still believe that the power tank should be a factory-installed option and not an after-sale, dealer-installed one - unless the dealer's technician has had specific factory training for the installation and set-up of the power tank option. Right now I am not convinced that all (if any) of the Zero retail dealer's technicians are receiving that level of training.
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Richard230,
Thanks for the response. Right now my bike is at 95% and will not charge any more so things are not going well. I am going to go riding more later and see if 95% is now the limit on charging for the battery. I went for a short ride this morning and the bike was at 97% when I returned. I turned the bike off and plugged the charger in it suddenly showed 95% but was not charging. I connected my smart phone to my bike but I am not getting any bike data at all. No battery level, odometer readings, nothing. Also had a brief moment where the bike would not move but no fault codes showing either. After turning the bike on and off whatever was wrong got cleared and the bike will now move. As far as training on the installation of the Power Tank there is none. Zero sent my dealer the instructions which were then printed out and taken to the mechanic who did the installation.
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I take it that the PowerTank is a permanent installation?
I thought that the PowerTank module would be the same as the Battery module for the FX so that it could be quickly removed if you want a lighter bike for a shorter run? If it were quickly removable it could also be charged somewhere standalone.
It sounds more like it is just a part of the bike once installed?
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I take it that the PowerTank is a permanent installation?
I thought that the PowerTank module would be the same as the Battery module for the FX so that it could be quickly removed if you want a lighter bike for a shorter run? If it were quickly removable it could also be charged somewhere standalone.
It sounds more like it is just a part of the bike once installed?
The power tank accessory is a permanent installation of the FX module. It is not something that the owner can remove, once installed.
I don't think you can depend on your typical IC motorcycle mechanic to take the time (or have the education) to completely completely read and understand pages of instructions regarding the installation and operation of the power tank accessory. If motorcycle mechanics wanted to have a well-paying job with good benefits and working conditions, they would likely be working elsewhere. I think most of these fellows do it for the love of IC motorcycles and having a degree in electrical engineering is not a prerequisite for the job - Harlan at Hollywood Electrics, excepted, of course.
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Also interesting to note that if you quick charge, the gauge is off.
As we are testing the charger setup I have, I often notice the bike SOC is higher than the dash reads. I have to unplug all charges let the contactor open, and then plug the charger back in to get actual SOC.
No big deal for me though as it will stop at 98%, but for me when I plug it back in it reads 100%
I do not have a power tank though.
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Something I have noticed - not s part of charging but of discharging - is when I have just finished a ride on my FX the iPod will show the remaining charge. After a few minutes of sitting the reading always goes down, sometimes as much as 5%. My question is always which one do I go by while I'm determining how much farther I could have ridden since I'm keeping a log of my more significant rides? Or, if sill riding, should I turn off the bike for five minutes to know my remaining capacity or do I go by the reading while the bike is still being ridden? The answer to these questions could make a big difference if I'm going to ride to near the charge limit.
Anybody know the answers?
Trikester
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I noticed the same thing. When on a ride, every time I turn the ignition off then back on, the power remaining percentage drops by 2 or 3%. I think it does that just to make sure that you keep riding and don't stop. ::)
Happily, my bike is pretty much beyond stopping at 98% now when charging. It is now stopping at 99% and then a day or two later, it suddenly seems to turn back on and adds another .5 watt-hours to the system and then jumps to 100%, before going back to sleep again. Go figure... ???
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Apparently it also goes the other way. This morning my display said 99%. I pulled out the smartphone app and turned on the ignition. The display immediately jumped to 100% (I guess the extra 1% was hiding). This was confirmed by the app, which showed 100% charge, 13.22 kWh in the battery pack and 116 volts, with 2 mV balancing. (Yesterday, after I arrived home from my 95-mile ride the balancing was off by 20 mV.)
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The outdoor temperature has also something to say regarding the battery capacity.
My capacity is about 10,500-600 kWh. on my ZF11.4 in a heated room
The picture shows the capacity in about 7-10 degrees celsius after 2 days off the charger
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I rode my bike around for 25 miles yesterday, plugged it in and a few hours later it had turned off and was showing a 98% charge on the screen, as usual. Today, about 24 hours after it had stopped charging, I happened to pass by my bike and noticed the green light flashing. The BMS had turned on the charger by itself and was finishing charging. An hour later the display was showing a 100% charge. So how about that? ???