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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: lolachampcar on May 10, 2013, 07:09:59 PM
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Nissen calipers.... A nice addition to the 2013 brakes. I still find them lacking.
My front brake did not seem to have much bite so I tried metallic pads. Now I have good bite and stopping power and the brakes are quite down to about five miles an hour. From five to zero they make enough noise to wake the dead. It is embarrassing, especially when you are on a nice quite electric bike.
The rear brake has lacked grip as well and has squealed from day one. Cleaning and re-bedding the pads/rotor does nothing.
So, my question for all you zero guys out there is-
Have you found pads that stop but do not squeal (unlike my EBC metallic on the front)?
Have you found a rotor for the front that uses a different material more conducive to acting like a real motorcycle brake?
Have you found a big three front end that will bolt onto Zero's triple clamps to solve this problem?
To be clear here, I love the bike and the brake issue is just a nit, albeit a noisy embarrassing one.
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The stock brakes on my 2013 FX will stop me on a dime. :o I have no complaints about my brakes, so maybe there is a difference from bike to bike.
Trikester
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I have a '13 S and my brakes work just fine and are quiet. Maybe you should have the dealer look at them. Something is not right.
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Brake squeal also came up for me a bit while breaking the bike in. Some progressive squeezing to ensure good pad seating took care of it for me, although I think the rear disc makes a little noise while walking the bike in and out of a parking slot. I'm okay with the stopping power on the 2013 DS, just needed them to be quiet so I wouldn't hesitate.
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That would be great if it was an issue with the bike. I'll look into it.
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Hi Lolachampcar,
Have you tried something like this!
http://www.amazon.de/Liqui-Moly-3077-Bremsen-Anti-Quietsch-Paste-100/dp/B00295ERQ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368251164&sr=8-1&keywords=bremsenfett (http://www.amazon.de/Liqui-Moly-3077-Bremsen-Anti-Quietsch-Paste-100/dp/B00295ERQ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368251164&sr=8-1&keywords=bremsenfett)
I don't know the English term its "brake grease" it is applied at the back of the pads and the brake cylinder.
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Yes, when the metalic pads were installed :(
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2103 xu rider here. both the front and back brakes squeal 100% of the time. i've taken off the pads and sanded them down a bit and while it helps for a few stops, it goes back to squealing below 5 mph.
so if anyone else has ideas... i'm have the same issue as lolachampcar.
currently i'm using the pads that was bought with the bike. mostly because i have no money to get nice metal pads. but it looks like it might be something else that is needed to stop the squealing.
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I have heard of anti-squeak coatings that can be applied to the back of brake pads. You might try your local auto parts and accessory shop and see if they have anything like this to prevent squeaking brakes. Or you could ask you motorcycle shop technicians for their opinion. Or you could contact the brake manufacturer via email for their suggestions to resolve this problem.
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Well I put the stock pads back on the front and it is as quite as a mouse and back to not really wanting to stop. To put this in perspective, my S1000RR stops on the front wheel (one wheel). The DS with metallic pads does ok while the stock ones are an exercise in patience (not really what you want when you are in a hurry).
I'll keep looking and post if I find something that works.
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Are the '13s that much different from the '12s? My front brake (don't think I've ever used the rear) is quiet and will do stoppies all day long.
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The 2012 bikes used Hayes brake components (with pads that seemed to be made of wood), while the 2013 bikes use Nissan brakes. The good thing about the Nissan brakes is that many different Nissan and after-market accessory brake pads should be available for these brakes than for the Hayes brakes. This gives you the opportunity to experiment with different types of pads to address squeaking, friction and pad life. I have Nissan brakes on a couple of my motorcycles and they perform well - just not as well as the top-of-the-line brakes made by some other manufacturers, such as Brembo.
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The 2012 bikes used Hayes brake components (with pads that seemed to be made of wood), while the 2013 bikes use Nissan brakes. The good thing about the Nissan brakes is that many different Nissan and after-market accessory brake pads should be available for these brakes than for the Hayes brakes. This gives you the opportunity to experiment with different types of pads to address squeaking, friction and pad life. I have Nissan brakes on a couple of my motorcycles and they perform well - just not as well as the top-of-the-line brakes made by some other manufacturers, such as Brembo.
You mean Nissin, right?
I stand by my rave for my '12 DS brakes. They're as good or better than my '12 Triumph Tiger brakes. Two fingers.
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Sorry, Nissin. The worse brakes that I have seen on a motorcycle that I have owned within the last 20 years are the brakes on my 2005 Triumph Bonneville, which are Nissin components. But that is likely due to the Triumph's single front disc brake and relatively heavy weight.
I think Zero switched to Nissin brakes this year due to complaints about the Hayes brakes performance. However, I suspect that their poor performance was due to the pad material choice. I have an early bike (made in February 2012), perhaps later bikes used softer pads.
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Sorry, Nissin. The worse brakes that I have seen on a motorcycle that I have owned within the last 20 years are the brakes on my 2005 Triumph Bonneville, which are Nissin components. But that is likely due to the Triumph's single front disc brake and relatively heavy weight.
I think Zero switched to Nissin brakes this year due to complaints about the Hayes brakes performance. However, I suspect that their poor performance was due to the pad material choice. I have an early bike (made in February 2012), perhaps later bikes used softer pads.
I raced an '05 Triumph Thruxton for three years in the AHRMA Thruxton Cup series, including Daytona. I then retired it to the street and hung a Motorvation sidecar with leading link front end on it. We experimented with various aftermarket brake setups and always came back to stock. Funny how experience varies.
When I compared my Zero brakes to the Tiger brakes I wasn't implying that the Tiger brakes were anything less than stellar.
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Hi, which EBC brake pads did you take ? I've been to "EBC brake direct" on internet but cannot find the Zero Motocycle reference....
Laurent
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They were stock at my local bike shop and not from a Zero reference. I would not think EBC even knows what a Zero is.
I'll dig them up (they are off the bike now) and try to get a number from them. They are a good example of what not to use. They stopped the bike very well (unlike the stock pads everyone seems happy with) but were very loud for the last five mph (quite before that).
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Thanks !!! Indeed there must be a bike using the same "Nissin" brake calipers than the Zero.
But there are several EBC brake pad materials: organic, sintered, and different use types: street, racing, touring, dirt..
Maybe we could get better luck with another type or maybe not as your experience proves.
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On all of my other motorcycles, when they needed replacement brake pads due to wear, I have been using EBC or DP sintered H-H pads and they seem to be working well. Good stopping power and no squealing. However, the stock Hayes pads on my 2012 Zero appear to be made of material that should last as long as the battery, so I doubt I will be searching for new pads to replace those during my lifetime. ;)
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The front pads I tried were EBC 185R. They had fantastic one finger grip but squealed so bad below 5 mph I had to take them off.
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The only problem I had with the brakes was when the regen braking and coasting were set low on Eco or the bike was in Sport with whatever default settings that has. I would find myself coming up too fast and close to cars waiting in line at traffic lights. Then I programmed everything for 100% including braking and coasting regen, so now the brakes work very well and pretty much like engine braking but without any downshifting and I only ride in eco mode. No squeaking. I almost always downshift and engine brake with a clutched bike, so these settings feel comfortable to me. The tires as someone pointed out are hard rubber, so unless you put on different tires from stock, the limiting factor in stopping might be the tires not gripping during a hard stop....just like they slip and slide a bit with an aggressive throttle. I'm used to that too though. If I did any upgrade it would likely be the front forks but even they are OK, just not great.
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The 2013 brakes are a little better than the 2012, but still IMHO they are not powerful enough.
Unfortunately if you decide to make a modification in order to increase braking power -which I did- your next stop will be the front fork...
See picture(disk diameter is now 320mm), radial caliper, and brake, stopping power is far far better than 2013 Nissin, and ridiculous in comparing with 2012 one...it is not cheap though...
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How easy would it be to just replace the entire front end - forks, brakes, etc with a sportbike front?
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It should not be difficult, but cost is the main driver as mostly of the aftermarket alternatives are good quality, but not cheap
One of the reasons Zero choose this fork manufacturer is because it is "reasonable quality" for the low price you pay...and I have highlighted reasonable
The things to bear in mind are:
- Type (regular or upside down -this last one would be suitable)- Weight
- Road-bike designed (the one Zero uses is not...)
- Overal height (otherwise you could modify bike geometry)
- Bars diameter (you do not want to go backwards on this)
Installation should not be difficult at all as mostly of the components are bike std (this would include the brake calipers)
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That looks like a MY12 fork. Can you share the disk part number? Did you do a drawing for the adapter? I've got a couple of those calipers from a 916 brake upgrade one of which I would love to put on my 2013.
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Yes, that is Lipo423's MY12 bike.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2250.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2250.0)
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Thanks for adding the link protomech ;)
Unfortunately the brake adaptor was "customized" in a local mill-workshop. First testing with aluminum, and afterwards final piece was made with high strength steel, there are no drawings available...sorry about that :-[
I have not got the Brembo disk serial number but it is a Supermotard-type std 320 disk.
After a few miles I have got to say that the std. fork is not up to the task :-\ If you brake heavily (you could eventually lift the rear wheel), you get a very strong vibration in the fork
Please let me know if I can help in any other way.
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We really need to come up with a match from another application with the correct weight, length and tube diameter. Swapping the whole front end would probably get us good brakes as well.
Man I wish the front end off my S1000RR would fit :)
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Agreed.
I wish we could do that in an easy and cheap way...unfortunately it does not look that way. The best bet would probably be to look at the motocross-enduro or supermotard available options and start from there.
If I had the time I would do it :'(
I bet you $1 this is one of medium term Zero's headache...getting a reasonable quality front fork + braking system to be fitted in the future models...Brammo already did the homework...
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I think the problem that Zero has is the cost of name-brand suspension and braking components. The adjustable Italian and Sachs suspension components, like the Empulse uses, are relatively expensive and the less expensive Japanese versions, like the Japanese use for their run-of-the-mill models, have no adjustments and would look cheap on a $15,000 motorcycle. The Fast Ace suspension is fully adjustable, has the specifications required for an expensive bike, are light weight and seem to perform OK for lighter riders. But Fast Ace needs to up their interior component quality, give them more oil capacity and tune them for U.S. rider weight - all of these improvements would be a good thing for both Fast Ace and Zero. If Fast Ace improved the quality of their suspension components, they might be able to make a larger penetration into the world-wide street suspension market .
I think the only thing the 2013 brakes need are different brake pads to control the squealing. That should be very easy to sort out, considering how many types of pads are available and how few modern motorcycles have squealing brakes.
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Harlan (Hollywood Elec.) is sending a set of pads for me to try. He has had good success getting the bite of the R pads without all the drama below 5 mph.
I really did myself on the front suspension. I started looking at the Mission R and that was followed by putting a call into Ohlins. They make cartridge inserts as well as full forks. I think over half the problem with the FA stuff is stiction which rules out using just the cartridges.
i understand why Zero did it but it just seems to be a shame to own a bike that works so well APART from the suspension (and, in my opinion, the brakes).
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Ohlins is one of the best bets out there (if not the best)
They are not cheap though...
The other option (which would require some testing) is to change the std. axial pump for a radial one for reducing fingers stress, and improve braking modulation
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I guess I could understand addressing the forks. My only complaint is the stiction, which is almost unnoticeable in real world riding.
I STILL don't get the angst over the brakes. I couldn't be happier with mine. Maybe it's just perspective. I roadraced for 25 years. I've owned bikes as old as 1928. In comparison to those early racebikes or even '60s and '70s superbikes, the Zero brakes are an effing dream. I don't know what you guys want. I can do controlled, two-finger stoppies on my 2012 DS. What more do you want? It's not like we're GP racing the frickin' things.
Maybe it's just academic or maybe I'm just getting old. Or, maybe I just had some insight. How do the guys who are complaining use their front brakes in relation to the rear?
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Having own -and ride- several different bikes, I find the brakes on the 2012 models (front and rear) not powerful enough, and very low quality for a $13K bike..but I understand -and respect- that they might be acceptable for some other riders...
This is avoiding going to the expensive double monoblock calipers radial brakes you see in SBK, these are different animals..we are not talking about these level of braking power here.
The 2012 rear brakes are worst than the front one, not sure what you mean with the "use related to the rear". In modern road bikes the rear brake is not used to stop the bike.
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Having own -and ride- several different bikes, I find the brakes on the 2012 models (front and rear) not powerful enough, and very low quality for a $13K bike..but I understand -and respect- that they might be acceptable for some other riders...
This is avoiding going to the expensive double monoblock calipers radial brakes you see in SBK, these are different animals..we are not talking about these level of braking power here.
The 2012 rear brakes are worst than the front one, not sure what you mean with the "use related to the rear". In modern road bikes the rear brake is not used to stop the bike.
Ah, yeah, my point. I could understand complaining about the brakes if you're using the rear, but the front? I say again, I can do two finger stoppies all day. What more do you want. They're progressive, they don't fade.
Perhaps you got some grease on the disc. Perhaps there really is some significant one-off manufacturing flaw with your bike. Then again, perhaps you just like to complain.
What, specifically, do you mean by "not powerful enough" (see "stopppies" above)? What specifically do you mean by "very low quality"? If I can controllably and repeatedly stand my bike on its' nose, I'm at a loss to understand what more you want.
Again, I've owned over a hundred bikes, well over, and I'm very happy with my '12 DS brakes. They're at least as good as my '12 Tiger brakes. Way better than all the other brakes in the barn.
So you can pend the respect - just point out what exactly is lacking.
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I got the EBC pads from Harlan this morning and should have some feedback later today or tomorrow.
BTW, by not good enough, I mean i would like better :) If you are happy, I am happy for you (no sarcasm intended).
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No grease, no pad issues, no air in the system, etc...
If you have own + 100 bikes, that means you have seen the brake industry evolution...and these brakes are not in line for a 2012 road naked-style bike in power, brake modulation, disk surface, calipers, etc, etc...again, if you are happy with them, good for you! around 8 out of 10 users are not fully satisfied, and that's one of the reasons Zero is not installing them anymore in the 2013 models...and I guarantee you they will not in the 2014 models either.
Could you tell me the number of bike manufacturers (motorbikes) you have seen with the Hayes brakes recently?
Hayes is known in the MTB industry, not in the motorbike one
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...these brakes are not in line for a 2012 road naked-style bike in power, brake modulation, disk surface, calipers, etc, etc...again, if you are happy with them, good for you! around 8 out of 10 users are not fully satisfied, and that's one of the reasons Zero is not installing them anymore in the 2013 models...and I guarantee you they will not in the 2014 models either.
Where do you get the 8 out of 10 stat?
I'm still looking for some concrete reasons why you think they're sub-par. Something real - do they fade when they get hot? - are they ineffective in the rain? do they pulsate? are they generally weak (rhetorical since I can stoppie my bike)?
Disc surface? What in the world are you talking about?
Could you tell me the number of bike manufacturers (motorbikes) you have seen with the Hayes brakes recently?
Hayes is known in the MTB industry, not in the motorbike one
So is this the bottom line? You don't like them because they're not on hot sportsbikes? Oh wait, they are ... http://www.hayesbrake.com/hayes-apollo-monobloc-caliper-can-even-stop-ebrs-new-revolutionary-1190rs/ (http://www.hayesbrake.com/hayes-apollo-monobloc-caliper-can-even-stop-ebrs-new-revolutionary-1190rs/)
You remind me of guys that I used to race with that spent tens of thousands on go faster farkles and, well, didn't... but man oh man those $4k Ohlins fronts looked fast.
What do you think you're riding - a 150rwhp superbike?
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You may look at the 2012 forum info for the brakes data yourself, besides the Internet
Disk surface is the area the brake pads bite the disk, which is lower...
I perfectly know what I'm riding, but it looks like you still do not get the difference between a top of the line radial pump with its suitable calipers and disk besides and a MTB brakes manufacturer getting its nose in the motorbike world.
I request to be delivered the quality I paid for.
It is obvious that we will not come up with an agreement...which is ok for me. You are very happy with your brakes, and I'm very happy with my upgraded version...
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nick,
You are on a roll. You go........
Initial bite and overall stopping power were my two main issues with my MY12. My MY13 is MUCH better and Harlan's pads seem to be getting me much closer to my desired performance.
WRT being crazy wanting SB brakes, yep, I'd love to transfer the battery, motor and speed controller to my S1000RR and sell the motor. I'd do it in a heartbeat but it just will not work as a retrofit.
Lastly, I installed some EBC R pads which worked wonderfully on initial bite and stopping power. They would still be on the bike had they not squealed sooooooo bad below 5 or so mph as to wake the dead. They would be perfect in a racing application where you could care less how much noise they make at slow speeds but on the road they only served to scare the crap out of everyone at the light as I pulled up.
I know these brakes can work much better given the performance of the R pads so it is simply a matter of working with others on the forum to find better solutions. I believe that is what forums are good for, at least that is how I view them.
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I was curious for more specific detail on what people didn't like as well. From what I have read, it seems to be braking power and longevity that is lacking. I will disagree that just because you can do a stoppie, that must mean the brakes are powerful enough. I expect a certain level of power with a certain level of pull with my hand. Not everyone can pull the lever with the same force. After breaking my wrist, they would measure my grip strength, so I have some comparison and know mine is very bad compared to the average person. So lighter pull on the levers is a good thing for me. So it could be that some here that are wanting more powerful brakes are not used to pulling the lever as hard. People probably have a hard time describing what the issue really is. As an example, I have a low budget gas dirbike with a rear brake that is not powerful enough. I can lock up the rear, however I have to really push it hard. In many situations I am not in a good position and find it difficult to push it that hard. So I am often ending up with not enough braking power when I want it.
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Agreed.
Sometimes it is difficult to describe the issue, as well as having the time to do measurements, etc...
As you have pointed out one of the concerns is the lever pulling force, and the insecure/unsafe feeling you get...this is something you could eventually avoid just replacing the brake pump for a radial model -which I checked- and it looked like there was a certain "getting worse" risk because of the Hayes caliper type, related to the pump flow that would make the system to not work properly... so I decided to change the whole thing...I also wanted to avoid the noise you get sometimes with sintered pads, so the new system allowed me to keep the std. pads with far more braking power, modulation and very limited noise.
Anyway, as I said to one of my neighbors (You may know Alex Crivillé) opinions are like bottoms...everyone has got one ;D
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I definitely couldn't stoppie my 2012 with 2 fingers, I would need all 4. But the 2013 brakes are fine, they would haul you up with one finger no problem. There is no need for twin brakes etc. on a 90mph bike. My KTM had a single 4 pot Brembo and one finger would stand it on its nose at 100mph and it isnt that much lighter than the Zero in stock form.
I looked at a different MC for the 12 and it can't be done. They don't make radial MC's with a cylinder diameter small enough for the Hayes caliper, unless you are happy putting minimoto parts on your road bike.
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I was curious for more specific detail on what people didn't like as well. From what I have read, it seems to be braking power and longevity that is lacking. I will disagree that just because you can do a stoppie, that must mean the brakes are powerful enough. I expect a certain level of power with a certain level of pull with my hand. Not everyone can pull the lever with the same force. After breaking my wrist, they would measure my grip strength, so I have some comparison and know mine is very bad compared to the average person. So lighter pull on the levers is a good thing for me. So it could be that some here that are wanting more powerful brakes are not used to pulling the lever as hard. People probably have a hard time describing what the issue really is. As an example, I have a low budget gas dirbike with a rear brake that is not powerful enough. I can lock up the rear, however I have to really push it hard. In many situations I am not in a good position and find it difficult to push it that hard. So I am often ending up with not enough braking power when I want it.
It's coincidental that you'd post this today. I'd never tried a one finger stoppie until today and it worked fine. I grew up with BSA Victors and Norton Commandos and GT750 Ducatis so I know what a handful of front brake feels like. I'd agree that if excess force was required, a stoppie in and of itself would be no metric.
I'm almost to the point where I wonder if I should just consider myself extremely lucky to have chanced on a DS with extremely good brakes. That said, the two other Zeros I've ridden (both '12 Ss and with the lighter battery) felt pretty much the same so I don't think that's it.
After 25 years of road racing I got so used to disregarding the rear brake that it takes an effort to remember it's even there. The only time I use it on any road bike is in the soft stuff or maybe holding on a hill at a red light.
I was forced to go to an MSF course in Texas in penance for an alleged traffic offense and was able to talk them into letting me go to an advanced course. The instructor was a nice guy with a fully dressed Gold Wing and man could he throw that thing around between the cones. I was there on my Daytona 955i, not the best for slow speed parking lot work. He and I got along great except for one thing. He was adamant that I use all four fingers on my front brake lever. Drove me nuts. Totally unnecessary. Just like the Zero I could stand that thing on its' nose with one finger. Unlike the Zero there was also a practical aspect as you could brake and have full control blipping the throttle for downshifts. I can't do that with all four fingers on the lever, or not well, anyway.
I'll have to see how the longevity works out. I'll probably go to EBCs when the time comes just because that's what I'm used to.
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Anyway, as I said to one of my neighbors (You may know Alex Crivillé) opinions are like bottoms...everyone has got one ;D
Criville is your neighbor? You live in Spain? Lucky guy. Almost talked myself into going to Laguna this weekend. I decided not too since Moto2 and 3 won't be there and I have no interest in AMA. I do have tickets for Indy 'though. Weird little track. Just watched FP1 and 2. Some great footage of Marquez going through the corkscrew on a scooter with a guy on the back, obviously having a great time. The kid is amazing.
That saying gets a little more specific here and I apologize if I've been coming across as the more specific version. I feel the need to defend these bikes when I think the criticism may be unwarranted.
Take care.
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nick,
I too defend the bike :)
I was more interested in sharing ideas for what has worked as I know the brakes can be better. That being said, they will probably pry the bike from my cold dead fingers as, unless Zero out does themselves yet again, I'm not giving it up.
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Yes, he's my neighbor...We both live in Seva (Barcelona). This area & surroundings is full of very professional riders (I moved to this little town 9 years ago expecting to become a better rider -just being closer to them- but I dit not work out ;)
People like Alex, Sito Pons, Laia Sanz, Isidre Esteve, Dani Pedrosa, Marc Marquez, Toni Bou...etc...live very close to where I live (I can see Alex on regular bases, and crossed with Dani a few times while he was training in his road bike (I also ride one). Lorenzo lives (sometimes) in Palma de Mallorca - A good place to visit too!!
In Catalunya there is a lot of passion for motorbikes, and the world around them.
No problem. Nick, if you ever come to Barcelona let's have a beer together and talk about bikes (this is an invitation)
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Yes, he's my neighbor...We both live in Seva (Barcelona). This area & surroundings is full of very professional riders (I moved to this little town 9 years ago expecting to become a better rider -just being closer to them- but I dit not work out ;)
People like Alex, Sito Pons, Laia Sanz, Isidre Esteve, Dani Pedrosa, Marc Marquez, Toni Bou...etc...live very close to where I live (I can see Alex on regular bases, and crossed with Dani a few times while he was training in his road bike (I also ride one). Lorenzo lives (sometimes) in Palma de Mallorca - A good place to visit too!!
In Catalunya there is a lot of passion for motorbikes, and the world around them.
No problem. Nick, if you ever come to Barcelona let's have a beer together and talk about bikes (this is an invitation)
There must be something in the water in Spain. World class riders seem to grow there like weeds.
The first one is on me. Likewise, if you ever come to this side of the pond. New England is beautiful in the autumn. Lots of great roads.
I think my next trip home (I'm from Newcastle) will be in the spring. I prefer the Manx to the TT but I want to see the electric bikes on the mountain.
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Yep, it must be the water...I just need to find the bloody spring where all of these guys drink!!! ;D
Thanks Nick, Note taken...(I travelled a lot to the west coast, and very little to the East...so, who knows...), I also travelled to Grantham, and a few years ago...probably Newcastle is a nicer place...
Take care.
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Has anyone tried ceramic pads? I want to try them since they are supposed to be really quiet but I couldn't find any direct replacements.
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I really question these pads available for the std. 2012 brake caliper, but in the unexpected event you would find them, you will definitely have to change the std. rotor also.
And yes, they are very quiet (pure ceramic)
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Brake squeal also came up for me a bit while breaking the bike in. Some progressive squeezing to ensure good pad seating took care of it for me, although I think the rear disc makes a little noise while walking the bike in and out of a parking slot. I'm okay with the stopping power on the 2013 DS, just needed them to be quiet so I wouldn't hesitate.
Well, that didn't really improve things over the long term. I'll try to apply some appropriate grease to the rotor to keep the noise down, or just give up and switch brake pads later.
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I don't think grease is what you want to apply to your rotor, unless you want your 2013 brakes to function like the 2012 brakes. ;)