ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Tech Help => Topic started by: HotRodHoose on February 10, 2009, 11:59:48 PM
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I am a senior at Penn State University, getting my Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering, after my first Bachelor's I am heading for a degree in Electrical Engineering. As a senior project I am designing and building an EV Motorcycle. I have to plan this semester and build over the summer and next semester. I need some advice, I am shooting for about a 25 mile range, with a top speed of about 75mph, I was thinking of doing two 48 volt permanent magnet DC motors, running them in series and then switch them to parallel after a certain speed. I was thinking of running 8 odyssey lead acid batteries. I dont know what calculations to use to figure out if 96 volts will work or if there is a better way to do it. I want power with a decent range. I am building this to go back and forth to work which is 23.55 miles from home and I will be on a 65MPH highway. Thanks for any advice!
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Welcome! Sounds like a great project. Hopefully someone who knows can give you some good advice. :D
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motorwise, the etek-rt is probly your best bet, its a brushed dc which should have plenty of power for 75mph (depending on bike shape though). two 48 volt motors would probably just increase the cost, and complexity of the project. If you run lead acid batteries make sure they can output large currents for extended periods of time, and go for deep cycle ones, otherwise the Ahr rating is completely unattainable.
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The etek motors were the ones i was looking at. If i use just one motor, what voltage should i run, if i run motors i would have good low end power along with good top end as well. I was actually told to steer clear from deep cycle batteries and go for more of the absorbed glass mat Lead acid Odyssey batteries. I have found lots of lead acid batteries, where can i look for NiMH or Lithium batteries? I am not too concerned with price right now, i am in the design phase, so i have to design the best one and then make changes to fit my budget, its kind of a requirement of the class. One question i had was, do you buy a charger to charge all of the batteries at once with your total voltage, or do you charge each single battery? Thanks
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the etek-rt is rated to 72v, so if you can fit enough batteries in that would give the best acceleration. If you really wan good acceleration you would probly be better off puting in a small gearbox rather than a second motor, though i think just gear it right and it will have adequate acceleration. Yeh AGM is a type of deep cycle battery (i will be running this sort in a few months), though with agm you got to make sure the batteries can supply enough current. I think there are ev places that sell some lithium phosphate batteries though they are quite expensive, some second hand nimh hybrid batteries are probly your best bet if you can track them down. Lead acid batteries you can charge all at once, but i dont think you can do this if you run lithium or nimh batteries.
Any idea on what sort of donor bike you will be using?
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I actually work at a motorcycle dealership, so I am building a bike, i am going to find a frame and then make a lot of the bike myself. What kind of calculations can I do to figure out if I can achieve my range and MPH? I think I was told to stay away form marine deep cycle, not deep cycle in general. Is there any websites that I can look around on and check everything out?
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Yeh that sound about right, marine deep cycle are flooded i think, so not nearly as good as agm.
Range and mph is almost completely dependant on your aerodynamics, im using asportsbike donor (1990 KR1) so i found the areo factor of a R1 i think, then based my calculations around that. Though early testing was indicating it uses significantly more power than i thought, which could be due to brake drag.
MPH i would just use the motor hp, and compare that to existing bikes of similar shape.
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for example, a GN125 has 12hp and does 75mph for long periods of time. Aerodymically it is a horrible bike, so with a Etek-rt (9hp continuous, 18 peak) and a bike with a fairing i would expect it to easily do 75mph
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Ok, but i thought to figure out distance you can use some equations using the amp hours of your battery capabilities and such to find out if it is even possible to reach 25 miles or not. I just dont know what you use, i know you have to convert to power since its like 746 watts equals a horsepower, and then in general about 6 HP to cruise at 75 MPH, but do you use the batteries power, motor power, or do you do something with the controller?
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Yip, that pretty easy to work out, though it does relie on the assumption of power required to do 75mph.
first work out the watt hours of your batteries, amp hours(per battery) * voltage (per battery) * number of batteries.
Multiply the watt hours by the battery efficiency, which varie from type to type, but 0.8 is probably a good approximate value.
Find the motors power consumption, @e stimated 75mph 6hp*746
gives 4476
Divide the total watt hours by the motors power consumtion to find out how many hours it will run for, then multiply the hours by the speed to get distance.
example with my battery pack
watt hours = 35*12*3*0.8=1008
1008/4476=0.2252hrs
0.2252*75=16.9 miles
hope thats what you were after
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Heck yeah, thanks a lot. Sorry I haven't been on here for a while, my every day driver blew a head gasket that i just figured out after a week of diagnostic work, >:( If anyone knows where I can look for NiMH batteries that would be great, thanks a lot! Thank you very much Bogan for all of the help, you are awesome!
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Bogan, is that a pretty good estimation compared to what you are really getting? Are you really only running 3 batteries at 36 volts?
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alas, i have not yet completed the controller circuit so i cannot compare with what im actually getting, however using a speed controller from an electric bicycle, and wiring too small, i was almost double the expected current at 40kmhr, although i expect a large part of this extra power needed is due to the sub-standard speed controller and wiring, as well as some brake drag.
Yeh for testing ill only be running 3* 12v SLA, as ill be able to do 50kmhr (speed limit around town anyway), and if testing goes well, ill try and get some more fancy batteries, im designing the controller so they will bolt straight in without any electircal changes.
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Thats good, what controllers do you think are the best to use, I was told to try to get a curtis controller. But then someone else gave me this site where you can design your own controller, but I dont know how good it is: pwmpower.com. Thanks
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probably a purpose built EV controller would be best, i havent had any experiene with these, so cant help you with brand names. Though id expect you get what you pay for,, and also depends what features you are after, current/battery monitoring, regen braking etc
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Ok guys, I wanted to run this by you guys in case someone else has done this already, I am thinking of adding a solar panel to my rear fender to allow for some recharge while its sitting in the sun. What do you guys think?
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depends how sunny the area where you are is, though typically power generated from solar panels is pretty minimal it wud be easy enough to calculate how much charge you would gain from doing this, do you have a solar panel in mind?
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I do not have one in mind yet but I was thinking about getting one of those "roll" style ones, they are more efficient than the panels and are a lot cheaper. I work at a motorcycle dealership, so when I am at work I would let it sit out in the sun. Every little bit helps on electric vehicles. Anyway I wanted to share my newest addition to the project: I just got an email today and I will be using a hub center steering for the front instead of forks!!! YAY!
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another thing to keep in mind with the solar is the voltage, as it will probably need another voltage converter to charge the batteries from it
HCS, sounds pretty flash, no more brake dive for you :D im intrested to see if all the steering linkages needed will effect the feel of the bike, have you rode one with HCS before?
this sounds like a pretty interesting build, you should make a topic dedicated to it in homebrew if you get a chance
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The amount of solar you could add to the bike wont help it but for .001 miles in full sun all day. If you use it just to charge say a small 12volt batt for the lights I think that is fine.
As for the lead acid part, for a school project I think it would be more fun and show of skill to make up you own pack from many of the cells on the market.
I think you should also go above 48, 58 as the min to get the speed you want.
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breif look on wikipedia reckon u get 1000W of sun energy per square meter, with a conversion rate of 20% this is 200W of electrical energy per square meter, assuming 200x400 rear fender gives 0.08 square meter, or 16W, so for a full days charge you would get about 0.13kWhr, which should give around 2.5km travel. You might want to check the wattage generated by the solar cell though, sounds kinda high
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Yeah if its going to be that low then i would rather just build a solar charging station after I graduate. As for the batteries, I have no clue how to build a battery from cells, never even considered it so I don't even know where to start. I have not yet ridden on a HCS but I work at a motorcycle dealership and our Open House is May 16th and one of our parts reps has a custom build with HCS and he is bringing it to let me ride it, its the tessi version of the HCS so its a little different than what I am getting. I will have to check out the home brew section. Thanks a lot guys with all the help.
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After reading this thread I would recommend one mars motor and a lithium battery pack (lead acid is just not practical for the 23 mile range requirement) and I would skip regen or solar. check out these batteries, they are expensive but provide good performance and a long service life http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_thunder_sky.php (http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_thunder_sky.php) and one of these to monitor the battery array would also be worth the investment http://www.paktrakr.com/index.html (http://www.paktrakr.com/index.html)
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I actually was looking into them batteries, since I am giving up on solar I do have some extra money to spend so I may look into lithium batteries. Thanks for the websites and input.
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I am going to stick with 2 motors, just because I want to be different, and run a comparisons between 1 and 2 motors after the initial set up is complete so I have some comparison to talk about while I write my senior paper. The question I have about the motor set up is about the controllers. Is there a controller that can handle 2 motors or do I have to buy 2 controllers? Thanks a lot.
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if the motors are the same (and DC) you could probably just wire them in parallel and use a single controller
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Yes I am running the same motors both DC.
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then yeh, just get a controller that can supply double the current needed for a single motor and you should be fine, you will probly want to check it with the manufacturer just in case it voids the warranty though
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Ok, thanks. So I am checking current of the motors, since the motors will be 36v at first and then 72v after i switch to parallel do I need to find a controller that will do 36-72v or if I get a controller that does 72v to like 144v will that work or not?
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just run them parralell the whole time, you wont have to worry about a big switch that way, and itll give smoother acceleration, so get a 72 volt or higher PWM controller
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Right, but if I run in series and then switch to parallel I will get a better acceleration with the same top end, right? I am trying to get great performance and still have a pretty decent range. Maybe running in parallel the whole time will be good enough. I have to run a lot of testing and comparisons so maybe I will try that out as well, run all parallel compared to parallel and series and see how it compares. I will post all of my findings after I conduct all of the tests, but I can't conduct them until October, Blah, because of school.
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This has been covered on a few other EV forums. I will try and dig up the link. Switching the motor is the way to go for a kick of top speed.
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That would be awesome if you could find that link, I appreciate you even trying. That would be a lot of help, thanks a lot.
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here is the link. Some other posts on the same forum about switching, this seems to be the main one. Most of these are smaller bikes. For the EV motorcycle world we would need a much larger switch.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215
Some nice stuff on that forum about pack design and pack parts sources.
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had breif read of that thread picasso, 249 posts so i only had a look at the first page. I noticed they were talking about switching between wye (star) and delta configurations, this is applicable only to ac motors, as they have 6 terminals, hotrodhoose is planning to run two DC motors which have only two terminals each. Unless they talk about parrallel series switching later in the thread?
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My bad I did not see the part about the dual motors. That topic is also covered on the same forum. The problem with that side of things is double the parts needed on the bike. I havnt seen it don e with a single controller before.
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yeh in theory it shud work, as both motor will be running loaded so back emf differences between the motors (probly very tiny, but there none-the-less) should be negated, though im not sure, will do some more research and get back to you
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yip ive had a think about it some more, and putting two identical dc motors in parallel should work, the slight difference in back emf will sort itself out by pushing more current through one of the motors, and as they will be the same sort of motor this back emf difference and therefor the current will be neglidgeable.
with regard to switching between series and parallel, i dont think it is necessary, the controller can supply whatever current you want to two motors in parralel, so there is no need performance increase to use a series configuration (series may have some infintesimal eficiency gains at mid speed riding) but i dont think it is worth it. However im no expert, there may be some aspect of it ive forgotten about.
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Yes I do remember in electricity class, talking about the three phase connections with wye and delta in AC. So If I run in parallel only and not switch to series, we are talking more batteries then, so that I can get the full 72v or no? If I run in parallel in the beginning and then switch to series for more of like 35mph and above do you think that is a more attainable setup if I am aiming for 75mph and a 25mile range?
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no, no more batteries, in parrallel motor wiring you would need less batteries than for series. You dont want to switch to series at higher speeds because with motors in series configuration each motor only gets half the total voltage, so runs slower than parallel where each motor gets all the total voltage.
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I meant run them in series at first then switch them to parallel after a certain speed, or do you think its not even worth it at lower speeds. If i leave them in series will i get better acceleration at low speeds than with parallel or is it not even going to be that noticeable?
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no, putting them in series would not increase the acceleration, because with motors in series or parralel the acceleration is dependant on the current flowing through the motor, not the voltage applied, and with them in parralel each motor gets the full pack voltage so it is easier to maximise the current through the motors
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So it would be better just to run them in parallel the whole time and not worry about a switch from series to parallel. In that case is the extra motor going to help out and give me my top speed of at least 75mph?
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yeh parallel the whole time. Extra motor will help with top speed, and accelleration, you have double the kW to play with!
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Ok thanks, so what is everyone having the most luck with as far as controllers go? I found a motor but cant seem to find a controller that I really like.
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Ok thanks, so what is everyone having the most luck with as far as controllers go? I found a motor but cant seem to find a controller that I really like.
Hey man,
Like I said before, I am a newbie but from what I can tell on Evalbum and various other websites a lot of folks seem to like the Alltrax brand controllers. They seem to be pretty solid.
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yeh parallel the whole time. Extra motor will help with top speed, and accelleration, you have double the kW to play with!
How do you guarantee that each get the same current? Only one way.... 2 controllers, 2 motors, 1 big battery pack. You don't have twice the KW to work with, its still limited by the output of the controller. If its 400A, each motor "SHOULD" get 200A.... but if one motor has a different impedance, or is cooled at a different rate, more current will flow to one than the other. Its not a bad idea for racing, but not for something you drive on the roads for 30minutes.
Also, I'm not sure why anyone thinks that series is worse acceleration. Torque is current, speed is voltage. If you have your motors in series, you'll get ALL the current through both motors, but the speed will be limited. If you put them in parallel, you get 1/2 the current through each, but full speed.... eventually. There are gains to both, but with series, the issue of having unbalanced motors is negated, the current is the same through both, and neither will have unbalanced current... less cooling issues.
Also, even with motors the same design, the impedance varies quite a bit. Its essentially a short circuit, but its got a very low impedance (inductive mostly). One may be 1mOhm, the other is 2mOhm... that means the one motor could get 33% the other gets 66% of the current. The one with the lower resistance gets more current. It doesn't take much of a difference at such low impedances to throw things off.
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I probly just explained it wrong, with parrallel you get a much higher top speed. The acceleration can be the same as for series (but it continues through double the rpm range) this is assuming the batteries/controller just deliver twice the total current (when pwm voltage adjusting is taken into acount the power used will be the same as for series), and acceleration is roughly double that for a single motor.
To have twice the kW to play with i was refering to the motors themselves, of course you need a controller and batteries that can deliver this much, series you have twice the acceleration over a single but half the top speed, parralell you have twice the acceleration and the same top speed.
Current balancing will not be perfectly the same for each motor (think i mentioned that somewhere) but i dont beleive it will be unbalanced enough for one to start engine braking the other so I cannot see how this slight unbalance will be detrimental to the running of the bike. If you are correct and one motor has double the impedance of the other then sure itll create problems but manufacturing this flawed sounds highly unlikely.
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I have seen it with a couple motors... and not all motors are the same. Even just a little difference causes a difference in current. There's a difference in most motors out there even if they're the same. You just can't match brushed motors that well, too much resistance at the brushes. Contrary to what you might think, there are major differences in the consistency of Agni motors, as well as eteks.
You wouldn't THINK it'd matter, but its just like a resistor network, change the resistance of one resistor and the current flows to the one with least resistance. Its generally NOT a good idea to parallel motors for this very reason. If he wants to risk it, then carry on. I'm voicing my concerns, because they're real concerns, while yours are optimistic that it'l work.... because it seems like it should.
The time I've spent on elmoto, endless-sphere, EVDL, diyelectricar and working with Synkromotive and MotoCzysz and the discussion has come up a lot in the past couple years. There's no way to guarantee that it'l work besides one controller per motor each at full voltage.
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ok, i dont have as much experience with the real world applications, but at least the theory was sound!
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I didn't mean to come off as know-it-all, that was not the intention.
I just don't want anyone to assume it'l be 100% right and then have problems. There are always 2 sides to things. Here, the sides are why it would be good, and why it wouldn't. There ARE pro's to parallel though... just as there are cons.
Now, there are people that have done it and get away with it no problem, but if there was a problem, the unbalanced current would likely be the culprit.
Now, since power is power no matter how you look at it, I'd say, if you want 2 motors.....get a 144V controller from kelly and do series, the current is balanced, and the motors get the same power they would.... just gotta build a taller pack with smaller bats.
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yeh, that probly a bette ride, if you can get a big enough battery pack into a bike, wouldnt be doable with lead acids, possibly doable with prius nimh's, definetely doable with flash lithium batterys. Btw frodus i am impressed with the prices for lithiums on your website.
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We try to get VERY LARGE orders put together and get the pricing way down....
economy of scale :)
So far we're the lowest price for TS, Sky Energy and Headways in the US.
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frodus,
What's your website? I'm interested in getting Li-batteries for my bike.
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Ok, so now I should be thinking series and not parallel? So if I run series am I still going to have a decent top end, or would I be better going with two motors and two controllers in parallel? I would also like to check out your website as I am going with Lithium batteries now too.
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frodus,
What's your website? I'm interested in getting Li-batteries for my bike.
www.evcomponents.com (http://www.evcomponents.com)
email me at travis@evcomponents.com and I'll help ya out.
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Ok, so now I should be thinking series and not parallel? So if I run series am I still going to have a decent top end, or would I be better going with two motors and two controllers in parallel? I would also like to check out your website as I am going with Lithium batteries now too.
what voltage were you thinking for the motors? If you did 2 72V motors in series, you could throw a 144V kelly controller on there and be done. It'l have the same top end as 1 72V, but it'l get you there quicker.
You cannot parallel controllers. They won't switch at the same time (high frequency PWM). You would have One battery going to each controller. Each controller would be wired to its own motor.
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Ok thanks, do you think that I will be able to achieve a top speed of about 75mph with two motors in series at 144V?
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all depends on the motors and available peak power that the batteries can supply.
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Ok, I plan on buying lithium batteries but who knows which one, batteries are hard to figure out, i mean lithium come so small and to get the big pack its a pain in the rear.
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www.evcomponents.com (http://www.evcomponents.com)
take a look at the batteries there... anything from 10Ah cells, to 200Ah cells. You don't HAVE to use small format cells.
email me travis@evcomponents.com and I can help you chose something.
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Ok guys, I ran into another problem that I want some input on please! I have decided on going with a 72v system and I am sticking with a single motor since I got talked out of it, after I finish my project I plan on experimenting with different motor setups. I am also sticking with 72v worth of AGM SLA batteries and needed some input on chargers. I am hearing different things about what the best charger would be. For instance should I get a low amp 72v charger or high amp 72v charger? The high amp will charge it faster but I was also told the lower amp will give a better and deeper charge. And finally I was told by some people to buy a waterproof charger and mount it to the bike, and others are telling me not to mount it and just carry it around with me or stash it in the bike in storage but not connected or mounted. I would also be interested in hearing what chargers you guys are using and if powerstar batteries are any good from robotmarketplace.com (they are very cheap and I don't want to stick with lead acid when I start testing other motor setups. Thanks a lot again!
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I did have another question for you guys that I forgot to add, what would be the advantages/disadvantages to go to a 450amp controller from a 300amp controller?
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For charger, I'm using a Delta-Q 96V charger with custom charge algorithm. They have built in algorithms. We also sell a similar charger at evcomponents.com
They're both decent current levels and they're smart chargers. They won't balance the cells, so once every few months, its recomended to put a 12V charger on each one (one at a time is ok) to re-balance the cells.
For me, I'd rather have 1 larger charger that is waterproof that can quick charge my cells. I dont' want to lug around extra crap. I want it all onboard. I like this charger because it'l do lifepo4 and lead, its waterproof and its fairly small and its higher power than the Zivan charger.
I did have another question for you guys that I forgot to add, what would be the advantages/disadvantages to go to a 450amp controller from a 300amp controller?
more current to the motor = more torque to the wheel = better acceleration. Volts is speed, amps is torque. Plus it gives you a little flexibility in the future for different battery setup/motor setup.
Just don't turn a 450 all the way up when you first get it. Start low, work your way up while watching battery sag levels. Then you tune it to fit the battery limitations (see spec sheet for battery).
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Ok guys, I am back, this is by far my roughest semester with 7 classes including one being my senior project (building my electric motorcycle), so getting a hub centered steering front end is out because I will not be getting it until the spring and my project is due in about 4 weeks. I got everything going good but I came to a simple and stupid road block. I got everything I need for this project and I mocked everything up and started assembling the bike but now I realized, I don't have the wiring, lug ends, or safety covers. I am having a hard time finding them, one guy told me to check walmart because thats where he got his, but my walmart does not have wire in bulk. I tried an electrical shop and they don't have anything under 12 gauge. I need to get like a 2 gauge or 4 gauge wire I am guessing with 72v. Where is everyone else getting wiring from? Thanks. (This is a lot more work then I expected)
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welding wire dude, #4 or #6. Try airgas. NAPA has it too, maybe even autozone, but a welding shop/NAPA will have it for sure.- Blindspot 8)
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You can also try car stereo shops, they usually have wire for carrying massive currents, along with nicely made connectors for them.. although this stuff is generally beautifully machined, overbuilt and way more aesthetic than you'd need (gold plated everything) along with a higher price. I have 1/0 gauge power for audio in my ICE powered truck! :)
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Ok guys I need some good help and fast, the bike is due next Friday and I am in a rut. I bought the 72v Eteck RT kit from Elecectricmotorsport.com and I was wiring it up today and I ran into a problem. I don't know where every wire goes, lol, but I have a generic 72v wiring diagram but its not very detailed. I bought the altrax controller but it doesnt show me what wires go where, I also bought the magura twist grip and have no clue what the color of the wires mean and where to put them on the controller, also dont know how to hook up the cycle analyst from the same website. I also don't know how to put my ignition key into the wiring to allow me to have a keyed cut off. One more thing, the diagram I have shows a 72 to 12v dc converter from the shunt and the fuze, but then on the diagram he has labeled "from bikes 12v system" coming from the contactor. Does anyone have any help to lend or a better wiring diagram??? Please help me, my graduation depends on it, lol. Thanks a lot everyone in advance!
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WOW, I am so p*ssed off right now, DO NOT BUY FROM ELECTRICMOTORSPORT.COM. I bout the motor and controller kit off of them and for some reason I got two diodes instead of one and I called to figure out why, by calling their tech support line, and the guy told me they can't do tech support because they are too busy to be answering my questions, he told me to get on forums and buy a book. This is ridiculous, how does a company offer tech support if they can't fill their end of the bargain. I am pissed off that I paid close to 2k in parts from them if they told me they would offer tech support if I got stuck and then this sh*t happens. I am so freaking heated right now, I have a senior project that is due in less than two weeks and they can't help me out, what a bunch of jerks. Thanks a lot electricmotorsport for failing.
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have you bought a book? carl vogels book should be in your toolbox, plain and simple. If you don't know jack about electronics/system design then I think you should get it asap and stop acting like a baby.
it should be obvious what the diodes are for if you do a little searching for system design. You bought the parts. They sent you what you need. go to alltrax for the manual. search for "magura wiring diagram" on google. I can't believe you don't know what the diodes are for..... and yes, you need a diode, one for each contactor.
do some research of your own. You obviously went over your knowledge level and can't figure it out and are bitching and moaning about it and slamming the distributor because you need your hand held.
They have little patience (so do I) for people that don't do the research for themselves. The alltrax diagram is very easy to read. The magura throttle diagram is out there, but you don't need it if you can work a multimeter.... and the diodes are for the contactor.... they send extras in case people like you put them in backwards the first time.
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have you bought a book? carl vogels book should be in your toolbox, plain and simple. If you don't know jack about electronics/system design then I think you should get it asap and stop acting like a baby.
it should be obvious what the diodes are for if you do a little searching for system design. You bought the parts. They sent you what you need. go to alltrax for the manual. search for "magura wiring diagram" on google. I can't believe you don't know what the diodes are for..... and yes, you need a diode, one for each contactor.
do some research of your own. You obviously went over your knowledge level and can't figure it out and are bitching and moaning about it and slamming the distributor because you need your hand held.
They have little patience (so do I) for people that don't do the research for themselves. The alltrax diagram is very easy to read. The magura throttle diagram is out there, but you don't need it if you can work a multimeter.... and the diodes are for the contactor.... they send extras in case people like you put them in backwards the first time.
WOW! Dont you think thats a bit harsh. Those parts are very expensive and some people have a hard time with diagrams and such. If and i Im saying IF they offer tech support they should honor it and even if they dont like i said for a purchase that large its nice to know the company would look out for their costomers
Now on the other hand the guy should have some idea what hes doing if he expects a bachelors degree
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Ok. It's for your senior project. And you chose an electric motorcycle. Shouldn't you have an idea of what goes into an electric motorcycle? And if not, shouldn't you be doing the leg work to learn it?
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Ok, thanks for hounding me, my question for them was a simple question. I don't remember the number of the diodes, I knew where they went, I did check the website, and I got the wiring diagrams, thanks frodus. The reason I called them is because they sent me two different diodes and neither of which is the one that alltrax said i need for the contactor, thats why I called them to see how they ran their set ups. I apoligize for being a Mechanical Engineer and not an Electrical Engineer, you aren't born an engineer, thats why you go to school is to learn. I wanted to learn how they used two diodes instead of the one diode alltrax is saying to use. I was told to buy the secret of el nina book. I bought a book off of amazon but its not very good for anyone with an electric motorcycle, it was made for more of like electric cars and forklifts.
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I know what I am doing, I got the diagrams now and figure it out, I had a diagram with reverse and a foot control, but now I have the right one and got everything figured out except the diodes. I was a little flustered the other night when I could exactly read the diagrams the right way but I am good now. I did a lot of leg work to figure out what I was doing here. Don't go blasting me because you think you are a genius and like to talk down on people who are doing an electric motorcycle for their first time. Just because I figure everything out but the diodes doesn't mean I have no clue what I am doing. This was a learning process for me as well as a senior project, at least give me some credit for attempting something that isn't easy for a mechanical engineer and not making a lawn motor deck. Frodus man you made some jerk comments. BTW they aren't the same diode, and its not an extra for "people like me that put them in backwards the first time." The fact of the matter is that they told me if I needed help to call tech support (I think I still have the email from the one guy telling me this), and they couldn't stay on the phone with me for 20 seconds to tell me about the diodes. Maybe you can fill me in on how to build a perpetual motion machine Frodus.
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Ok guys I need some good help and fast, the bike is due next Friday and I am in a rut. I bought the 72v Eteck RT kit from Elecectricmotorsport.com and I was wiring it up today and I ran into a problem. I don't know where every wire goes, lol, but I have a generic 72v wiring diagram but its not very detailed. I bought the altrax controller but it doesnt show me what wires go where, I also bought the magura twist grip and have no clue what the color of the wires mean and where to put them on the controller, also dont know how to hook up the cycle analyst from the same website. I also don't know how to put my ignition key into the wiring to allow me to have a keyed cut off. One more thing, the diagram I have shows a 72 to 12v dc converter from the shunt and the fuze, but then on the diagram he has labeled "from bikes 12v system" coming from the contactor. Does anyone have any help to lend or a better wiring diagram??? Please help me, my graduation depends on it, lol. Thanks a lot everyone in advance!
This is what gave everyone the impression that you didn't have a clue. You didn't know where the wires on the throttle went, you didn't know how to hook up the analyst, you didn't know how to wire the ignition into the system, you didn't understand how to wire the motorcylcle's 12V system into the contactor... And you very desperately begged everyone else to do the leg work and bring you the diagrams.
I have no problems with you asking for help. I was under the impression that you were at a complete loss and you needed some major help to get humpty dumpty all back together. I'm sorry if that wasn't the case. Again, it's just the way you came off in your post.
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What if we stop discussing petty sh@t and Hodrodhoose post some pictures id like to see your bike and hey if your a mechanical student use a transmssion ;) im bustng your balls and im a fan of variable gearing no not cvt's i know you dont have time and im happy that you figured your bike out
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Now on the other hand the guy should have some idea what hes doing if he expects a bachelors degree
Agreed.... but now there are more details, its a little more clear, there are more diodes, and not the same kind.... so I'll continue instead with helping him.... I just hate people bashing the distributor.... when often times it can be resolved easily.
Hotrod,
What diodes are they? (give me model numbers and I'll look for you).
Most of the time the topics have come up already.... sorry I was harsh, but 90% of the people that complain on the forums about something are often times the people that don't use google first.... so if you did look, i appologize.
The better book is from carl vogel, I found one at Barnes and Noble.
Get me the diode models and I'll help, i've helped quite a few people design similar systems.
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When i made that first post I only had some stupid wiring diagram that used pictures to display where the wires ran, but it just show 5 wires going to a controller. Then I spoke to my professor about it and he showed me the alltrax diagrams, then I found the rest of them. I made that first post after 9 hours of being at my garage trying to fix this thing because it was suppose to be due this past Monday, but I told my professor I ran into some problems and he was OK with it. I do have anther question on top of the diodes, which I will get to you tomorrow, sorry if i made anyone mad, including you frodus. I usually do all of the research first rather then think I know what I am doing, because I always tell my friends that I am the real world Tony Stark (if anyone knows who he is). After I did my research I found a lot of information so I kind of helped myself, but forgot to erase the post where I my mind was shot after drilling, grinding, and welding all day at the garage and being in a panic over two diodes. I was wondering how you run the key switch with the alltrax controller because the diagram shows a foot throttle, which obviously I dont have, and it shows a wire splitting off and going to the contactor as well as pin 1 on the controller. If it runs to the contactor isn't that going to be noisy? And it shows the wire to the key switch as coming off of the fuse for the 72v, isn't that going to run 72v through the key switch?
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I will post pictures after it finished, its not pretty though, I built a bobber from scratch and I am painting it flat black, the only thing I used from a bike was the front of a yamaha xs650 frame, the forks, wheels and brakes. I made it a hardtail and make the fenders by hand using a hammer, sand bag, and tree stump. This was the first bike I have ever built, I usually build hot rods, who would have guessed by my name. But anyway I want to thank everyone who has helped me out, I could not have done this project without you guys. And its not done so I may need more help, lol. Thanks a lot in advance.
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No worries, I tend to defend people a little sometimes.... Todd at EMS is my friend and I've heard horror stories about customers, thats all.... I'll help you since they might be a little busy....
link me to the alltrax diagram you're using....
most of the alltrax show 72V going through the key enable, the only way to avoid that is to have a 12V system as well, and use a higher voltage rated DC relay...
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Here is the alltrax diagram I am using...
http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-081-A_DWG-AXE-PermMag-no-Rev-wire-dia.pdf (http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-081-A_DWG-AXE-PermMag-no-Rev-wire-dia.pdf)
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looks like 2 diodes, do the part numbers not match?
what are the numbers, I bet they're "equal" to whats on the drawings.
As far as that schematic, its got 72V running through the keyswitch. No footswitch is needed, but you could have that hooked to your "engine kill" switch from the original controls so you can disable.
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Ok, this is what I have: The 2 diodes I have sent to me from them are 1N5408 and RL207. I talked to the electrical engineering lab tech and he gave me the 1N4004 in the alltrax diagram, but which one or ones do I use and which one is rated at 300 amp like my controller is? That point in the diagram above where the two wires split off after the foot switch, can I just run them piggy back off of the connection at the solenoid or not?
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I know this is somewhat off topic but if I wanted to build my own DC motor, whats a good book to read? I am thinking of future plans.
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Ok, this is what I have: The 2 diodes I have sent to me from them are 1N5408 and RL207.
the 2A one (RL207) is the one that comes off the pack after the 5A fuse (MR752.... it'l work, the current wouldn't be that much)
the 3A one (1N5408) should be used for the contactor because of its higher forward current peak rating.
I talked to the electrical engineering lab tech and he gave me the 1N4004 in the alltrax diagram, but which one or ones do I use and which one is rated at 300 amp like my controller is?
you don't need one rated at 300A, nowhere on that diagram is high current flowing into a diode. The high current goes through a fuse and then to the contactor.
That point in the diagram above where the two wires split off after the foot switch, can I just run them piggy back off of the connection at the solenoid or not?
Thats fine, its a node. Anywhere along that wire between the fuse and contactor is the same thing. Tap off at the contactor if you wish, or after the fuse. Its your choice.
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Ok, thanks, we will see how it goes this weekend wiring it up and then the first test ride.
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Ok, so I was reading the diagrams from alltrax on the actual motorcycle part of the wiring and it says not to reference anything to ground, but my headlight is self grounding. Why does it say not to reference anything to a ground on the bike? It wants everything to go back to the ground wire. It also shows an extra solenoid in the 12 volt set up which I dont understand why you need that, why cant you just run the dc to dc converter to a fuse box and then run all of your 12 volt accessories from the fuse box?
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it means don't ground the chassis to pack negative.
You'd need to get a DC-DC converter (or aux 12V battery) to run the lights if they run off chassis, otherwise.... you create ground loops.
What second solenoid are you talking about? You need to start linking and reference what you're talking about if you want help.
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http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-053-A_DWG-Vehicle-Accessory-wire-dia.pdf (http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-053-A_DWG-Vehicle-Accessory-wire-dia.pdf)
this is the wiring diagram I am talking about, I know why they have the solenoid there but my dc to dc converter only has a 72 volt in, 12v out and a ground, 3 wires. The dc to dc converter they are showing has a 72v out and the 72v in is coming from the solenoid. I have a dc to dc converter, so will that allow me to leave my headlight as self grounding?
Also, Todd emailed me back and told me the reason I got two diodes from them and not one is because they go in parallel across the solenoid. Todd also cleared everything up for me, he is usually the one i talk to, he is a good guy. I checked those diodes, the bigger one that you are saying goes to the solenoid is a 3 amp and the smaller silicone rectifier is a 1 amp (if I am reading these right), so do they have big enough amperage ratings to use on the coil and before the key switch? Thanks a lot.
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Its not a solenoid. Solenoids are mechanical actuators..... its a Relay and its not high current. I honestly don't like that setup because it puts pack voltage through the keyswitch.... not the best way to do it, in my opinion.
You can use your DC-DC converter with chassis ground, but remember, the chassis is ground so do not touch the pack + when leaning against any part of the chassis. If you do, disconnect the ground from the pack FIRST.
as far as those diodes, do what todd says, not me. If he says parallel, then do that. Make sure they're the right direction.
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How would you do the key switch then? And what would I do with the logic with your new way?
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I do have a question about the controller software, what do you actually do with it and how do you hook it up? I downloaded it to see what it was like but do i need to use it or will my bike work without it?
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How would you do the key switch then? And what would I do with the logic with your new way?
I'd have a completely seperate 12V system (or DC-DC converter) and run 12V through the Key-switch to a relay that has 72V rated contacts.... like this: http://www.casadelgato.com/KUEP-3D55-12 (http://www.casadelgato.com/KUEP-3D55-12)
Run 12V to the coils (through the switch). The Pack voltage goes through the relay Normally Open contacts.
I just don't like HV going through my keyswitch, or any other contacts, since they're rated for only 12VDC.
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I do have a question about the controller software, what do you actually do with it and how do you hook it up? I downloaded it to see what it was like but do i need to use it or will my bike work without it?
RTFM
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I do have a question about the controller software, what do you actually do with it and how do you hook it up? I downloaded it to see what it was like but do i need to use it or will my bike work without it?
RTFM
Im sorry i defended this do your own homework
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Thanks again, thats a good deal on that relay.
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hotrod,
Go get this book:
Build Your Own Electric Motorcycle by Carl Vogel
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Motorcycle/Carl-Vogel/e/9780071622936 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Motorcycle/Carl-Vogel/e/9780071622936)
Read it cover to cover. This book makes it easy, you don't even have to leave your chair or get on the phone to find the answers you need.
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Ok, thanks for the book reference.
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Ok, here is an unpolished pic of the bike. The brakes aren't finished yet, and neither is the 12 volt system. The bike worked fine after the first run of wiring was done. I turned the project in, did the report and presented it and everyone thought my project was by far the best. I also named it "Amp Angel."
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so ya got her runnin ok?
looks great, more pictures....
throw it up on evalbum