ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: hotsauce on August 05, 2024, 08:40:26 PM
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I'm debating adding a power tank to my 2023 SR/F, and I'm trying to decide if 3.6kWh is worth the expense. Am I right in thinking that's only an additional 30 miles of range in Eco mode? I'm planning some long trips, around 600 miles/1000km each way, and I'm weighing the pros and cons. It's another 30-45 minutes of riding between charges, but also another 30 minutes of charging at 6.6kW.
I've pretty much ruled out the charge tank since there are so few chargers that go above 7kW that it's hardly worth the $3000+
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For a long trip like that with many charging stops I would think about it less being able to ride for longer and having to charge for longer and more having greater charging options and not having to cut it so close. If you get to a charger and it's busted you now have some extra range to make it to an alternative. And say you had 150 miles of range and a charger at 70 miles and 170 miles, instead of having to stop early and charge for a short time at the first charger to make it to the second you could go straight to the second, maybe even taking a better route.
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To me powertank is not worth it. Taking into account price, capacity and weight. Here in Europe we have good selection of 11 and 22 kW AC chargers so chargetank would make more sense in my situation. My advice is to take range and charge time into account while organising your trips. Couple of months ago I went just under 300 miles in one day. Even with few long breaks while charging it was a slog. I prefer to travel shorter distances per day. My preference is to start the day with a fully charged bike and end it at a charging station with about 20% left. Maybe do one charge during the day. This usually allows me to choose the nice curvy roads, end the day early for fresh start early next morning.
Your values might differ.
If you want to travel longer distances Energica is probably the bike to go for.
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I'm debating adding a power tank to my 2023 SR/F, and I'm trying to decide if 3.6kWh is worth the expense. Am I right in thinking that's only an additional 30 miles of range in Eco mode? I'm planning some long trips, around 600 miles/1000km each way, and I'm weighing the pros and cons. It's another 30-45 minutes of riding between charges, but also another 30 minutes of charging at 6.6kW.
I've pretty much ruled out the charge tank since there are so few chargers that go above 7kW that it's hardly worth the $3000+
I use 7 miles per KWH as an average for normal riding. So expect an extra 25.2 miles with the power tank for MOST of your rides or as an average. Some rides will be a bit more and some a bit less. But I find 7 miles per KWH to be a realistic average on most electric motorcycles with one person (no passenger).
You are the only one who can decide if that extra 25 miles of range will be helpful to you. Just as with the charge tank.
On my Zero DSR/X, I like the extra storage space most of all. The 6.6 KW charging works well for me and I also do not need more range to get between charge stations.
IMO, charge station locations are a lot more important than range. If you have a larger battery, it will also take longer to charge for the extra range.
Anything you add up there will make the bike more top-heavy. If you can get by with the bike as is, I would leave it as is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Until someone can provide a reasonable counter-argument I am staunchly against Power Tanks. They are mixing and matching cell chemistries and pack voltages. It is a phenomenally stupid idea and unique to the gen 3 bikes that have the new Farasis P73 cells in the monolith.
For the layman: Zero switched to a new battery cell which I have no problem with. It's great. It's solid. It's awesome. It's physically really really tall. Twice the height of the previous cell so they had to change their pack design to accommodate it. Unfortunately this means it won't physically fit in the Power Tank spot. So instead they use the last generation cells in there which are a different chemistry and operate at slightly different voltage. I recommend finding a battery engineer and asking them if it's a good idea to mix and match chemistries and voltages in the same pack and watching their heads explode when you tell them a company is doing it in an EV.
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Until someone can provide a reasonable counter-argument I am staunchly against Power Tanks. They are mixing and matching cell chemistries and pack voltages. It is a phenomenally stupid idea and unique to the gen 3 bikes that have the new Farasis P73 cells in the monolith.
For the layman: Zero switched to a new battery cell which I have no problem with. It's great. It's solid. It's awesome. It's physically really really tall. Twice the height of the previous cell so they had to change their pack design to accommodate it. Unfortunately this means it won't physically fit in the Power Tank spot. So instead they use the last generation cells in there which are a different chemistry and operate at slightly different voltage. I recommend finding a battery engineer and asking them if it's a good idea to mix and match chemistries and voltages in the same pack and watching their heads explode when you tell them a company is doing it in an EV.
Which year did Zero start doing such?
I assume it does not apply to my 2017 SR with Power tank . . . or does it? What was the year they started to use the new cell in the main battery pack?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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they use the last generation cells in there which are a different chemistry and operate at slightly different voltage.
Are we sure about that? The 2022 model year and newer power tank is a completely different item than prior years. I would have thought that was because they use the new chemistry.
Which year did Zero start doing such?
I assume it does not apply to my 2017 SR with Power tank . . . or does it? What was the year they started to use the new cell in the main battery pack
-Don- Auburn, CA
2022
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Are we sure about that? The 2022 model year and newer power tank is a completely different item than prior years. I would have thought that was because they use the new chemistry.
100% sure. The Farasis P73 cell, which is what they use in the current Monolith, is 542mm tall. Or ~21.3" in Freedom Units. That's the cell itself with no enclosures, wiring, or other components.
The Power Tank is 9.5" x 7.5" x 9.75" (HxWxL)
The Power Tank uses the previous gen cells, P32, that are 231mm or 9.09" tall.
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I fully agree that mixing and matching cells is not ideal. But as long as the Powertank has its own BMS, and the voltage range is the same for all cells, there is no reason paralleling cells with slightly different chemistries shouldn't work without issues. I am certain Zero has taken full precautions to prevent problems with slightly different form of cells.
When cells (or batteries) are in parallel, most power is drawn from the cell with the highest charge or lowest ESR (Equal Series Resistance - I know it's AC term usually applied to capacitors but it does apply to cells). As power is drawn from that cell (let's assume it has half the capacity of the others), its charge drops, it's ESR increases, so power draw from that will be reduced compared to the other cells and the other cells will contribute more of the total power. Since they are all connected in parallel one cell cannot get empty before the others while in normal use. This is assuming similar voltage range for all cells.
You're more likely to run into issues with cells in series in the battery. A weak cell in series will draw down the the voltage for the whole series connection.
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The voltage range is not the same for all cells.
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So are they actually using the older power tank cells outside of their specification? I think I remember that Zero was fairly conservative with their utilisation on older models, but also with newer models they let you "overcharge" them for extended range.
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Right. With the new P73 cells in the current monoliths, the "charge to 110%" feature goes above 4.157vdc which was the cap on the P32 cells. The P32 cells are still capped at 4.157vdc. While I have not been successful in finding the exact value that is the 110% charge caps out at, I have confirmed that it is above 4.157. That is a major issue in my opinion.
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But wasn't the upper limit on the old cells actually below what they're rated for? The spec list I found said 4.15-4.2v. I don't know whether that extra ~1.6v is enough for that extra 10% SoC though.
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Yes. That is what I refer to as a padded value to reduce stress and wear on the cells. Zero's LVC value for the P32 cells is ~3.39vdc, and the HVC is ~4.157vdc. You COULD take them to 3.3 and 4.2 but it will degrade the pack measurably faster. This is also why the 32 in P32 which stands for 32 Amp hours are in fact capped at 28.5 amp hours. As recognized by the bike the packs are seen as 28.5 which, in the old monoliths resulted in a total capacity of 114Ah.
This also explains the Charge Tank delivering a strange value of 57 Amps max to the pack. Because the old S and DS models were offered in a 7.2 variant, and Zero's max charge rate is 1C aka 1 hour to charge, this meant that the Charge Tank used on a 7.2 pack wouldn't exceed that. Because they're half of the 14.4 pack which was 114Ah meaning it's 57Ah. And hence why the Charge Tank delivers max 57 amps.
Should it be 32Ah instead? It's not my area of expertise so I'll defer to Bryan Cady who probably made the call when he was Zero's head battery engineer.
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Some interesting information. I'm a little surprised they never tried to eke out a little more capacity from the 7.2/14.4 after all those years by going higher and lower. Do you know what min and max they're using on the new ones outside of the 110%? Also is that where the extra capacity comes from with the 15.6? And also how are they also getting even more capacity with the 17.3?
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Because the new 14.4s are powered by 56 Farasis P73 cells in a 28S2P instead of the old design of 112 Farasis P32 cells in a 28S4P configuration. The more you cap a battery's use closer to its nominal voltage value, the easier it becomes on the cells. If the old P32 packs used uncapped values it would be a 128Ah pack, but it's capped at 114Ah. If the new pack with P73 cells was uncapped it would be a 146Ah pack. I do not know what they capped it at, but I think it's safe to presume it's closer to 130Ah.
The point being that it's annoying to have the physically identical 17.3 pack capped to 14.4, but it should give better performance and the pack should last longer. You have a balancing act of attempting to keep the pack healthy versus delivering value in a product aka riding range.
edit- what you really have to remember is the elephant in the room: Zero saddled themselves with a 5 year unlimited miles battery warranty. Because of this, the engineers are responsible to do everything they can to design a pack that both gets every bit of power they can safely get out of it and build it to last at least 5 years. That's the balancing act. If these were meant to be track-only race bikes, screw it. Hammer the pack. Charge up the cells to 4.3vdc and burn the entire thing out every year.
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Are we sure about that? The 2022 model year and newer power tank is a completely different item than prior years. I would have thought that was because they use the new chemistry.
100% sure. The Farasis P73 cell, which is what they use in the current Monolith, is 542mm tall. Or ~21.3" in Freedom Units. That's the cell itself with no enclosures, wiring, or other components.
The Power Tank is 9.5" x 7.5" x 9.75" (HxWxL)
The Power Tank uses the previous gen cells, P32, that are 231mm or 9.09" tall.
Apparently the Power Tank has its own BMS. Doesn't that eliminate the issue?
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It's a good thing that it has its own BMS and it certainly helps it be simply A Very Bad Idea instead of Fire Definitely Shooting Into Your Crotch.
But no it does not eliminate the issue.
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Are we sure about that? The 2022 model year and newer power tank is a completely different item than prior years. I would have thought that was because they use the new chemistry.
100% sure. The Farasis P73 cell, which is what they use in the current Monolith, is 542mm tall. Or ~21.3" in Freedom Units. That's the cell itself with no enclosures, wiring, or other components.
The Power Tank is 9.5" x 7.5" x 9.75" (HxWxL)
The Power Tank uses the previous gen cells, P32, that are 231mm or 9.09" tall.
Apparently the Power Tank has its own BMS. Doesn't that eliminate the issue?
It's also in parallel with the main battery. I won't say the issue is 100% eliminated, as a general rule it is bad to mix different cells, but IMHO it's pretty safe.
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I would not argue the word "safe". The safety measures implemented on these bikes and batteries are great. I would argue that it is a bad idea that will likely cause constant headaches and owner frustration and very likely a desire they'd never purchased the Power Tank accessory.
Or, to put it another way, I don't worry about the safety precautions. I worry that the safety precautions will work like they're supposed to and make the bike unrideable.
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I would not argue the word "safe". The safety measures implemented on these bikes and batteries are great. I would argue that it is a bad idea that will likely cause constant headaches and owner frustration and very likely a desire they'd never purchased the Power Tank accessory.
Or, to put it another way, I don't worry about the safety precautions. I worry that the safety precautions will work like they're supposed to and make the bike unrideable.
I have been happy enough with the two PT Zeros that I have owned, a 2014 and 2018 model. It is a heavy sucker, placed in a poor location for the best handling, but they haven't caused me any problems. However, if I had to do it again I wouldn't buy the PT. Now that I am getting older, it makes the bike tough to push around my garage. Dropping 50 pounds from that high location would make the bike much less top-heavy, handle and steer better, plus not buying it does save a lot of bucks. However, at the time I was fascinated by Zero's claimed 455K battery pack life.
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I have been happy enough with the two PT Zeros that I have owned, a 2014 and 2018 model. It is a heavy sucker, placed in a poor location for the best handling, but they haven't caused me any problems. However, if I had to do it again I wouldn't buy the PT. Now that I am getting older, it makes the bike tough to push around my garage. Dropping 50 pounds from that high location would make the bike much less top-heavy handle and steer better, plus not buying it does save a lot of bucks. However, at the time I was fascinated by Zero's claimed 455K battery pack life.
Only get the power tank if you need it for the extra range or you're better off without it. My 2017 Zero SR has the power tank and it was handy back in 2017. Today, there are countless more J-plugs in the areas I ride to (I charge it at 8 KW with external chargers) especially new free-to-use ones between here and Auburn, CA (Verdi, Truckee Airport, Truckee Town Hall, Colfax, NV City). These new free-to-use J-plugs make the range less important than it was seven years ago.
And if the bike falls over good luck trying to get it back up. I recently installed the crash bars on mine which should make it a little easier by not falling so flat to the ground.
See here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9964.msg89358#msg89358)
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have been happy enough with the two PT Zeros that I have owned, a 2014 and 2018 model. It is a heavy sucker, placed in a poor location for the best handling, but they haven't caused me any problems. However, if I had to do it again I wouldn't buy the PT. Now that I am getting older, it makes the bike tough to push around my garage. Dropping 50 pounds from that high location would make the bike much less top-heavy, handle and steer better, plus not buying it does save a lot of bucks. However, at the time I was fascinated by Zero's claimed 455K battery pack life.
I cannot stress enough how irrelevant this sort of comment is. I am talking about a very specific scenario here. I understand you have a desire to help, but unless you have a new BCB monolith full of Farasis P73 cells mated with a Power Tank full of Farasis P32 cells you're not helping.
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I have been happy enough with the two PT Zeros that I have owned, a 2014 and 2018 model. It is a heavy sucker, placed in a poor location for the best handling, but they haven't caused me any problems. However, if I had to do it again I wouldn't buy the PT. Now that I am getting older, it makes the bike tough to push around my garage. Dropping 50 pounds from that high location would make the bike much less top-heavy, handle and steer better, plus not buying it does save a lot of bucks. However, at the time I was fascinated by Zero's claimed 455K battery pack life.
I cannot stress enough how irrelevant this sort of comment is. I am talking about a very specific scenario here. I understand you have a desire to help, but unless you have a new BCB monolith full of Farasis P73 cells mated with a Power Tank full of Farasis P32 cells you're not helping.
I thought we were discussing power tanks in general. I guess I just don't know much about the Gen 3 models and their power tanks. However, I do know that the power tank in my 2018 Zero also used different cells from the main pack and didn't cause any obvious issues. I am sorry that I didn't understand the specifics of the question. But it is true that the weight of the power tank and its relatively high location does have a negative impact on handling and the general feel of the motorcycle, which is something worth considering.
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I'm guessing from the OP that this topic would be about whether to buy a new one.
Personally I'm suspicious of the extra battery, and not at all keen on the extra weight which seems disproportionately high relative to the extra range. And anecdotally mostly all I hear about are problems with the things.
Extra charging capacity ftw.
Cas :)
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I have been happy enough with the two PT Zeros that I have owned, a 2014 and 2018 model. It is a heavy sucker, placed in a poor location for the best handling, but they haven't caused me any problems. However, if I had to do it again I wouldn't buy the PT. Now that I am getting older, it makes the bike tough to push around my garage. Dropping 50 pounds from that high location would make the bike much less top-heavy, handle and steer better, plus not buying it does save a lot of bucks. However, at the time I was fascinated by Zero's claimed 455K battery pack life.
I cannot stress enough how irrelevant this sort of comment is. I am talking about a very specific scenario here. I understand you have a desire to help, but unless you have a new BCB monolith full of Farasis P73 cells mated with a Power Tank full of Farasis P32 cells you're not helping.
Actually it's a pretty direct and helpful answer to the original question asked.
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I thought we were discussing power tanks in general. I guess I just don't know much about the Gen 3 models and their power tanks. However, I do know that the power tank in my 2018 Zero also used different cells from the main pack and didn't cause any obvious issues. I am sorry that I didn't understand the specifics of the question. But it is true that the weight of the power tank and its relatively high location does have a negative impact on handling and the general feel of the motorcycle, which is something worth considering.
As the person who actually asked the question, you have the right of it. I'm finding your answer far more useful than that of MVetter, who seems to be hyperfixated on a detail that seems less important the more I learn about it
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You clearly know better, then. I will not stand in your way.
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Ummmm Hmmmm
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Ladies, it’s not polite to swing your purses around like that.
I got a lot of negative feedback when I investigated this, from people who had issues with it. And everyone hated the weight. I am considering the double charger input option because around here there are usually two cables near every spot.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroMotorcycles/comments/viglov/power_tanks_and_why_i_dont_trust_them/
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Zero's Rapid Charge Module all diverts into a single J1772 inlet. In order to get 2 inlets you need Scott's mod: https://www.emotodesign.com/product-page/dj-rapidcharge
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On a recent 800 mile round trip from Portland OR to Couer d' Alene Idaho there is a 92 mile stretch of 60 mph highway with no chargers. I was down to 9% on the way there and had headwinds on the return, and had to limit my speed to 50 mph and got to the next charger with 7% left. There are times when extra battery capacity would be nice.
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On a recent 800 mile round trip from Portland OR to Couer d' Alene Idaho there is a 92 mile stretch of 60 mph highway with no chargers. I was down to 9% on the way there and had headwinds on the return, and had to limit my speed to 50 mph and got to the next charger with 7% left. There are times when extra battery capacity would be nice.
If the bikes were streamlined we'd get instant 10-50% extra range and/or higher speeds.
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Often thought a ZZR1100 would make a great basis for an EV conversion...
Cas :)
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Often thought a ZZR1100 would make a great basis for an EV conversion...
Cas :)
Or a BMW K1, or a Suzuki Hayabusa. ;) The Suzuki sells on its power and top speed, but other streamlined bikes mostly turn out to be sales duds. Motorcycle enthusiasts tend to be very conservative as illustrated by the popularity of "retro" and ADV-styled models.