ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on June 28, 2023, 03:36:06 AM
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Here is a link to the news: https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/zero-is-developing-liquid-cooled-electric-motors-44591980
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Jolly good! Though I think Zero perhaps ought to concentrate on battery cooling and charging technology rather than trying to extract more performance from the motor.
Cas :)
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Was going to say the exact same thing. Increase the voltage and give us DC fast charging, no point increasing the cost, weight, and reducing durability just so we can ride faster for longer and eat into the range even more.
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Well the battery thing is going to be kind of a trade off. Higher voltage means more cells so more weight, or smaller cells which means less capacity. If they did get into CCS charger range that would open up a lot of opportunities for them of course.
Do know that water cooled is going to add weight. the pumps, the superstructure to hold the water etc etc and water is it's own demon when around electric. Even if it's got radiator fluid / non conduction fluid in it, ions / metals still leech into it, corrosion,..it's a constant pain in the ass. We used water cooling on our LCI's for Generator start and it was just a constant pain in the ass with conductivity etc etc. I hope they can pull it off but water cooling can be a real bear. Ask Chevy about their Bolt and it's water cooling.
Aaron
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Well the battery thing is going to be kind of a trade off. Higher voltage means more cells so more weight, or smaller cells which means less capacity.
A current 7.2kW/h pack consists of 56 cells, 28s2p, 116V and 56Ah. They could double the voltage to 232V with 56 cells in parallel for 28Ah and still end up with 7.2kW/h (actually something like 6.4kW/h nominal in both cases but I'm just saying 7.2 as that's what Zero labels them as). They would of course need a new motor, controller, and charger for the higher voltage but that's not that difficult.
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Arranging the four modules in series would give a 400V system which would be able to take a pretty hefty charge quickly... if they could keep it all cool enough...
Zero would have to completely design everything from scratch though if they fiddled with the voltage. But then that's really exactly what they need to do.
Cas :)
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I wouldn't say from scratch, they don't make the controller or charger so it's just a matter of choosing a higher voltage one (I've found Sevcons in 300V and 700V for example). For the motor it could just be a simple case of rewinding their existing ones, although no doubt they'd want to make more changes than that.
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I know its often talked about that Zero needs to do a higher voltage system for a variety of reasons (CCS charging for example), however if they did that there's a high probability they would have to switch every model due to manufacturing costs, which they would shut down 116v R&D and alienate upgrades for any 116v manufactured bike to date. Replacement parts would likely become hard to get your hands on before too long. At present you can still go buy a 7.2 monolith and throw it in a 10 year old 5.7 FX. Surely this is a big decision point on how they proceed forward while still supporting their existing customers.
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Well everything except the battery on the gen 3 bikes was new so that was their chance to switch to a higher voltage, and even the batteries are different to the gen 2 bikes now. And with the DSR/X they've introduced yet another new motor. As has been said to make a higher voltage bike the battery itself is a fairly simple thing, they can still use the same cells and even the casing and they just need to change the way they're connected together. It would be kind of similar to how they either make the 3.6 modular packs or stick two of them in a box to make a 7.2, or two of those for a 14.4.
Of course we're simplifying things a bit but it also wouldn't be some massively complicated change. I imagine the reason they didn't do it is more to do with marketing than logistics, a fast charge capable bike would immediately kill off the rest of their product line for a lot of people.
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One thought that crossed my mind is that a larger motor, radiator, water pump, related hoses and other cooling system hardware means less room for batteries, and therefore less range, unless Zero can find batteries with a higher power density - which I don't see coming along any time soon.
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If they are going the higher voltage range, why not go for more power / torque too? But now we need a redesign as the current drive train might not be able to handle making it much more ballsy.
I think eventually they are going to have to make a decision here. Do you want to remain a wall socket scooter or move up into the full blown higher voltage motorcycle world?
Either is going to come with serious trade offs. I think moving up might be the better idea, if for nothing more than just being able to use all the chargers that eventually over the next few years, are going to be popping up all over the place.
Just my opinion.
PS. Richard230, if you believe half of what is being said, supposedly there are a few new technologies, ie sodium etc that are just around the corner, that supposedly are going to give us half the weight and size, 4x the power and cycle life. I won't hold my breath though :)
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Right now Zero are in a unique position regarding their current hardware design:
1. The advantage of lower voltage means less isolation hassle* and a slightly safer overall proposition for something perched under the family jewels.
2. The AC charging network is, by and large, far more widespread and reliable, all over the world, and my anecdotal observations are that AC chargers are found in far more interesting locations than DC.
3. The whole drivetrain from battery to motor is at present air-cooled and there is a great advantage in simplicity here - manufacturing costs, reliability through simplicity, servicing costs. It's easily fast enough for normal everyday use.
4. And combined with the belt drive Zero really are probably the most fuss-free motorcycle ever invented. And this is a laudable aim - to be as utterly simple and hassle-free to just get on and ride as possible.
For the above reasons alone I am likely to stick with Zero for the foreseeable future, because it fits the kind of riding I do 99% of the time.
If they go making a high-performance liquid cooled powertrain, it'll be all very nice and everything but it is also likely to only really cater to the 1% and idle middle aged dreams of whizzing around at 100mph everywhere that don't actually intersect anywhere with actual reality any more. The other manufacturers are all making the same mistake: Triumph and Ducati are concentrating on ludicrous performance output instead of dealing with the actual issues that prevent people buying electric bikes which is range and charging time. Energica seem to have realised this with the vastly detuned Experia.
Cas :)
* I am aware of a certain amount of irony here
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Just like princec, from an owner's perspective I am in love with the simplicity of the SR/F/S. Changing the tires and the belt summed up what's maintenance has become for me. Ok, on top of that, I should also mention too many software updates (because slow and unreliable) and guaranty jobs (waiting for my third battery).
Last summer I drove with ambient temperatures going over 38°C (100 F) and the only thing I worry a bit about was to find a shady spot to recharge (battery cooling indeed!). The motor always delivered what I asked from it and it never had to use any "strategy" with me ;D (*1). Not sure why Zero would now begin to chase after Energica customers?
*1 SR/F Owner's Manual: "The temperature indicator illuminates solid, letting you know that the thermal strategy is being applied and that your motorcycle’s power will be reduced accordingly. If you encounter the strategy while trying to maintain a high speed, the effect of the strategy will be that your motorcycle will be gradually slowed down to the point that the top speed of the bike is “sustainable,” from a thermal standpoint. If you encounter the strategy due to a different sustained high power event, such as continued powering through a low traction surface, power will simply be reduced to ensure the continued safe operation of your power train"
... 2. The AC charging network is, by and large, far more widespread and reliable, all over the world, and my anecdotal observations are that AC chargers are found in far more interesting locations than DC.
More to that point: It's got to be cheaper per kWh than it currently is. The most complex part of AC stations is their communication module, the rest is essentially trip relays and copper wiring. On the other hand all DC charging stations must be equipped with an expensive and heavy cable and plug, whereas most AC stations just provide a much cheaper and vandal-proof outlet.
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Also DC stations have a hugely more complex handshake protocol which is prone to being misinterpreted, and their own AC-DC rectifiers which break frequently as they are in fairly constant heavy use, and both reasons are why as often as not, DC stations seem to be out of order.
But mainly, like, who wants to sit for half an hour in a services on the M1 drinking shitty motorway services coffee when you could be flying over the Cat and Fiddle and charging at a pub while eating steak and kidney pie.
Cas :)
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You are correct in that many of the manu's seem to be looking at insane performance. I think you are missing the mark a bit by saying it's not going to work for them. Perhaps you have bittered in your old age and forgot what it was like to be young and want to have fun. The bikes will get them from point A to B, ok not at 100 MPH because there ARE traffic laws, but at the end of the week, you can take the same bike out to the track and then do your 100 MPH around corners and have a blast. They seem to be selling a fairly decent amount of these bikes too I may add. Enough of them it seems, for them all to keep looking for even faster ones to put out. As for range, they already know how to fix that, but the tech is not there yet.
The AC has a bit of protocol as well, while not AS complicated, trust me, they can booger it up plenty well on their own. The problem is really two fold. 1. there really is no SET standard. Ok one could argue that CCS is the standard but that is loosely applied. Second is the actual method the standard works. It seems EACH bike has to map out it's parameters etc and get the charger to agree.
Why can't we just have the bike do it's OWN charging, let IT via the manu's programming, decide what it wants, and all the charger really does is tell it. Ok, I can go from 145v to 500v and can give you 40amp max. From there a simple 4-20 really could control the whole damned thing, or 1-5 if you must play with the 250 Ohm resistor. The bike says, I want 28 amps, the charger tickles up the voltage (up to max allowable) until current is 28 amps. Or maybe just simple words via canbus or something simple, instead of sine waves and saw teeth etc. Once something is agreed on, THEY ALL DO IT !!! So you and your Tesla do not have to worry if you can charge at the volkswagen station charger.
The price per KW, that is how they make their money, YOU want convenience, YOU are going to pay for it. That 40K charging station is not going to pay for itself, it's going to take a LOT of charge ups to pay it off. But on your point, I wish they'd put faster AC charging on the bikes. Energica, if they just piggy backed 2 chargers which should fit easily under the seat they could get 7.2KW of charging off 30 amp AC. At that point, you really would not have to rely on the DC so much. You go into your pub, guzzle a pint and eat your kidney pie, then pinch a politician and wipe your mayor afterwards and your bike has an extra 50 Km range on it now. Plenty range to get you to the next pub for the dessert you forgot at the first one :D Not to mention it's a hell of a lot easier to string a bunch of AC outlets up then dedicated DC charging stations.
To be totally honest, WHY do we even need that crap for the AC charging to begin with. WHY the special plug, and comms, and cut off box etc etc. WHY can't that all be done on the fkn vehicle? All that cord contraption is, is just a fancy switch anyways. Get rid of all the crap, build it INTO the vehicle so all you really have to do is take out a plain ole extension cord, plug it in and plug it into the bike and it charges? Now you can park on the sidewalk and charge off the phone charging plug.
Aaron
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To be totally honest, WHY do we even need that crap for the AC charging to begin with. WHY the special plug, and comms, and cut off box etc etc. WHY can't that all be done on the fkn vehicle? All that cord contraption is, is just a fancy switch anyways. Get rid of all the crap, build it INTO the vehicle so all you really have to do is take out a plain ole extension cord, plug it in and plug it into the bike and it charges? Now you can park on the sidewalk and charge off the phone charging plug.
Aaron
It's there so the outlet or cord isn't energized all the dang time. We're dealing with a crap ton of energy and we only want it going where it's supposed to be going.
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so you are afraid of household current? Extension cords terrify you? That's essentially what you are saying.
The cord is at whatever your mains is at. It's no different than the cord that you have running from your wall to your computer for you to post. We better tell the people who have those goofy lights running around their porches and patio's to light it up at night that they are in grave danger!!
To be honest, making YOU bring your own cord might even be safer, because someone as safety conscious as you is going to check their own cord regularly and make sure it's in top shape, unlike say a public cord that can get run over, trashed, cut, you name it. But it has a switch on it so it's safe.
If you don't want your cord energized all the dang time, simply unplug it from the wall outlet when not in use. Maybe there's an app for that?
Aaron
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I think you are missing the mark a bit by saying it's not going to work for them. Perhaps you have bittered in your old age and forgot what it was like to be young and want to have fun.
Well not quite... when I was young I had tons of fun with just 40bhp. The motorcycle industry's chief marketing tactic however is to put you on a treadmill of upgrading to bigger and bigger and more powerful and above all more expensive bikes. That's almost their entire marketing plan. This is also why the motorcycle industry is so fucked.
The perpetual treadmill has seen the complete death of the 600 class as the power outputs spiralled into irrelevance to the point that they were so uncomfortable and extreme and peaky that nobody could be arsed with riding them any more. The 1000 class has gone the same way, with even more ridiculous power output. All the fun's gone out of these bikes, they're just sold to midlife crisis men who eventually realise that actually, they don't want that much power or the aching back or the paranoia any more.
The most fun I've had in the last 20 years on bikes was my 690 Duke. Turns out it is exactly at the sweet spot of price, weight, and performance, and it also turns out that the biggest selling bikes are all making that sort of output too - the MT07, Trident, etc. I watch with my
head in my hands now as I see the Hornet, GSX8-S, 890 Duke, etc. all doing the exact same pattern of getting ever more powerful...
Anyway my rambling point is, more power is a marketing trick that we fall for when we're young. We don't need more power. Especially not in the EV world right now, as it just means a dead battery in 10 miles. What we need is charging convenience.
The AC charging protocol is, btw, as you describe. There's a demand signal, which is analogue I believe; bike sends appropriate signal down the wire, charger supplies appropriate current/voltage, job done. Nearly all of the control is done by the vehicle. DC charging seems much more complex, likely because of the vastly increased danger, and is controlled chiefly by the charger, which has to be extremely finicky about what it puts out because if there is even the slightest hint that something is not right at the end of that charging cable it could cause instant death, fire, or explosions.
Cas :)
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I am happy riding my Royal Enfield with its 20hp as long as I stay off of the freeway. It is really great on two-lane back roads and has the most protective fenders of any motorcycle on the market, which is very useful when riding on wet roads.
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Just sold my 27 hp Honda 250cc. Under 99% of circumstances I felt no need for more power. Sure, it was on the limit at 80 mph so freeways were not much fun. I prefer the backroads anyway. The wind at 80 mph is no fun either. :)
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80 MPH no fun?
Naah!! That's where things just start to get interesting!!
What's not to love about leaning sideways to go straight :D
Aaron