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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: domingo3 on December 20, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
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Is there anything that one can do about voltage sag? It's getting pretty significant on my 2016 SR when it's cold. Today, the minimum SOC I hit was 5%. By the time I got to work, it had crept up to 8%. An hour later, it was up to 43% even though it wasn't plugged in.
I can avoid some of the effect by putting the bike on a timer so it warms the battery by charging right before I leave. Is there anything else I can do, or is it just a fact of life in old age?
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uh
I'm quite confused. Are you saying that your battery hit 5% and then when left alone for a few hours it displayed 43%?
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Is there anything that one can do about voltage sag? It's getting pretty significant on my 2016 SR when it's cold. Today, the minimum SOC I hit was 5%. By the time I got to work, it had crept up to 8%. An hour later, it was up to 43% even though it wasn't plugged in.
I can avoid some of the effect by putting the bike on a timer so it warms the battery by charging right before I leave. Is there anything else I can do, or is it just a fact of life in old age?
Hate to tell you this, but I expect your battery is crapping out and it looks like it's out of warranty.
You have the exact same symptoms I had when the battery crapped out on my 2017 Zero DS. But I lucked out. Not only was my battery still in warranty but my bad 6.5 KWH battery was replaced with a new 7.2 KWH at no cost to me.
What you will notice:
1. Magic charging (will charge back up by itself after a hard ride).
2. Faster real charging to full.
3. What seems to be better & more regen.
4. Very reduced range, especially on the freeway and it will get worse fast. Less than half the range in little time, and then a third of the range, etc.
The battery is getting a lot smaller in KWH capacity, so it charges faster to full. Twice as fast when you get half the range, three times as fast to full when you have a third of the range.
You can verify the bad battery by the faster charging at the same old rate that used to take longer.
At least that was my experience.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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uh
I'm quite confused. Are you saying that your battery hit 5% and then when left alone for a few hours it displayed 43%?
Yes, that's almost exactly what I'm saying. I hit 5% when riding about 70 MPH. I continued to ride for a couple of miles at around 25 MPH (I reduced speed due to traffic conditions, not current limiting. By the time I got home, the SOC was up to 8%. Then, I keyed off the bike and left it unplugged for an hour and keyed it on right before the second picture, showing 43%.
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Thank you for sharing your experience. So far, the charging time seems to still be consistent if I let the battery rest for a while before plugging in so that I have a more accurate indication of the SOC. The temperature has a big effect on this. I saw it some last winter and then the bike did fine over the summer. When you say your range got worse fast. How long did it take in terms of time and miles to get worse, for example to go from half to one third of the range?
Is there anything that one can do about voltage sag? It's getting pretty significant on my 2016 SR when it's cold. Today, the minimum SOC I hit was 5%. By the time I got to work, it had crept up to 8%. An hour later, it was up to 43% even though it wasn't plugged in.
I can avoid some of the effect by putting the bike on a timer so it warms the battery by charging right before I leave. Is there anything else I can do, or is it just a fact of life in old age?
Hate to tell you this, but I expect your battery is crapping out and it looks like it's out of warranty.
You have the exact same symptoms I had when the battery crapped out on my 2017 Zero DS. But I lucked out. Not only was my battery still in warranty but my bad 6.5 KWH battery was replaced with a new 7.2 KWH at no cost to me.
What you will notice:
1. Magic charging (will charge back up by itself after a hard ride).
2. Faster real charging to full.
3. What seems to be better & more regen.
4. Very reduced range, especially on the freeway and it will get worse fast. Less than half the range in little time, and then a third of the range, etc.
The battery is getting a lot smaller in KWH capacity, so it charges faster to full. Twice as fast when you get half the range, three times as fast to full when you have a third of the range.
You can verify the bad battery by the faster charging at the same old rate that used to take longer.
At least that was my experience.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Thank you for sharing your experience. So far, the charging time seems to still be consistent if I let the battery rest for a while before plugging in so that I have a more accurate indication of the SOC. The temperature has a big effect on this. I saw it some last winter and then the bike did fine over the summer. When you say your range got worse fast. How long did it take in terms of time and miles to get worse, for example to go from half to one third of the range?
Perhaps around a month or so. By then, it became very obvious something was wrong and what a big difference the new battery made, especially on the freeway.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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When you were at 5% what did the voltage display as on the app? What did display at 43%?
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I am riding to work at 0 to -5°C these days, and I can confirm that the few degrees make a huge difference in performance, much more than at 10 to 5 or 5 to 0. So don't sorry, I wouldn't say your battery is dying.
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When you were at 5% what did the voltage display as on the app? What did display at 43%?
Looking at the logs, about 95 V when I was riding at 5% and it had gone up to 100V by the time I parked and it read 8%. When I started charging, it was 102V.
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I have NEVER. and I mean NEVER encountered that much sag/recovery. I'm having trouble even processing that.
edit- can you post said logs?
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Here are the logs. The SOC and time doesn't completely agree between what was on the dash and what's in the logs, but it's close enough to see what's happening.
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@domingo3
I have studied your log. I sent you more details in PM.
It seems that your pack capacity is correct.
It also seems that you do not have bad cells.
Perhaps it is just some stupid SOC behavior, as many of us have experienced after some firmware updates.
In your case, you ride regularly long trips (45 miles) at sustained speed around 65 mph. It makes the SOC drop a lot, and then it goes up after some battery rest.
Perhaps that the cold weather has increased this SOC (and voltage) sag.
Your battery is not quite new also. If you have kept logs for similar trips for the past winters, you could make some comparison.
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I can avoid some of the effect by putting the bike on a timer so it warms the battery by charging right before I leave. Is there anything else I can do?
My advice will be to wrap the battery in some insulation (when riding in cold), and also maybe using some battery warmer (like they use for car batteries), when parked, I doubt that charging the battery will make a big difference in the battery temperature.
From Zero Owner's Manual:
"Cold Weather Operation
Cold weather (< +10°C (+50°F)) operation of the motorcycle has no permanent impact on its power
pack; however, the rider may experience a temporary reduction in power, achieved top speed and
range due to the effect cold temperatures have on the amount of energy the power pack can release.
The colder the weather, the greater the effect. "
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Thanks for posting the logs; I forgot about this thread. I just spent some time parsing and this is just a massive firmware bug, similar to the Magic Charging stuff that has been plaguing the new platform bikes. Take this line for example:
07862 12/18/2022 07:46:07 Charging PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 7C, PackSOC: 24%, Vpack:101.965V, BattAmps: -11, Mods: 01, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
Pack shows 101.956vdc which is juuuuuuust under 50% for a Zero battery module. Instead the bike registers the SoC as 24%. Actually I found something more upsetting just before that
07831 12/18/2022 07:35:41 Riding PackTemp: h 11C, l 10C, PackSOC: 57%, Vpack:104.813V, MotAmps: -56, BattAmps: -22, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 17C, CtrlTemp: 8C, AmbTemp: 7C, MotRPM:1701, Odo:55826km
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07849 12/18/2022 07:44:41 Riding PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, PackSOC: 22%, Vpack:101.037V, MotAmps: -30, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 31C, CtrlTemp: 14C, AmbTemp: 7C, MotRPM: 572, Odo:55836km
This log is saying that in fewer than 10 minutes of riding you went from 105.813vdc aka ~57% down to 101.037vdc which it thinks is 22%. It's not. 101.03 is like mid-low 40%.
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What is the Mods: parameter referring to?
Cas :)
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*shrug*
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Thanks for all the replies. This bike has a "race program" custom firmware. The original owner told me to never update the firmware but I didn't clarify if updating the firmware would brick the bike or it would just lose the "race program." I'll put some more effort into figuring that out and try some of your other suggestions as well. The race program gives it a higher max speed and regen all the way down to 1 MPH. It makes the bike unique, but I don't think I'd really miss either of those things if a firmware update will reduce my range anxiety.
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Just to put your mind at ease, raising the top speed and regen settings are done in the motor controller. When Zero pushes firmware updates to the MBB and BMS, they aren't doing anything to the motor controller. That's not to say that couldn't or won't some time in the future, but at least they aren't right now.
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Brief update. I've found a couple of things that have helped.
I've changed my timer so that, after it is full, it stops charging for 15 minutes and then starts again. This seems to help with topping off the battery. When I've just left it plugged in, I'd often lose a few percent more than expected in the first couple of miles as if it wasn't actually fully charged.
From your suggestions, I've insulated the battery with neoprene. I had read about this from Brian T Rice years ago, but never wanted to do the arts and crafts necessary to make the coozy. With a bit of time thinking about it, I was able to use an old pair of wetsuit pants as a cover without using any tools unless you count a bungee cord as a tool. I'm sure it would be more effective if I did a better job of making something that fits well, but this has helped significantly. Where before I would sometimes have to go 45 MPH to make it through my 45 mile commute, I can now do the same commute in the same temperature at 55-60 MPH.
Thanks all
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Brief update. I've found a couple of things that have helped.
I've changed my timer so that, after it is full, it stops charging for 15 minutes and then starts again. This seems to help with topping off the battery. When I've just left it plugged in, I'd often lose a few percent more than expected in the first couple of miles as if it wasn't actually fully charged.
From your suggestions, I've insulated the battery with neoprene. I had read about this from Brian T Rice years ago, but never wanted to do the arts and crafts necessary to make the coozy. With a bit of time thinking about it, I was able to use an old pair of wetsuit pants as a cover without using any tools unless you count a bungee cord as a tool. I'm sure it would be more effective if I did a better job of making something that fits well, but this has helped significantly. Where before I would sometimes have to go 45 MPH to make it through my 45 mile commute, I can now do the same commute in the same temperature at 55-60 MPH.
Thanks all
If a simple neoprene layer, not even custom tailored, makes this much of a difference, it sounds like a suggestion worth making to Zero for adding to future designs -- it would cost very little.