ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: cscherer@bluewin.ch on November 25, 2022, 01:36:20 PM
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Hi,
I bought an Eva Ribelle this spring with all the trimmings. To ride the bike is a dream, but here is the issue:
Since the first CCS charging I had an issue with the charging power. I never got over 15 kW. So I returned the bike and they found a problem in the battery and changed the whole battery. So the first time the charging worked with 22kW. After several AC charges with no issues, I tried again on fast charging. Same thing happened. Charging power changed between 14 and 15 kW. No more.
I also tried on different charging stations. Battery symbol was always green. After charging on three stations with only 14 kW of charging power I tried again and had 23 kW for a short while, then it decreased again to 15 kW and jumped around very quickly (once every second) between 17 and 12 kW...
I never changed the setting of 75 Amps. Most of the charging I started around 10% SoC. The last one with 67% SoC.
Now the bike is again with my dealer for troubleshooting without success.
Do you have similar experiences or advices? Thanx!
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Hi,
I bought an Eva Ribelle this spring with all the trimmings. To ride the bike is a dream, but here is the issue:
Since the first CCS charging I had an issue with the charging power. I never got over 15 kW. So I returned the bike and they found a problem in the battery and changed the whole battery. So the first time the charging worked with 22kW. After several AC charges with no issues, I tried again on fast charging. Same thing happened. Charging power changed between 14 and 15 kW. No more.
I also tried on different charging stations. Battery symbol was always green. After charging on three stations with only 14 kW of charging power I tried again and had 23 kW for a short while, then it decreased again to 15 kW and jumped around very quickly (once every second) between 17 and 12 kW...
I never changed the setting of 75 Amps. Most of the charging I started around 10% SoC. The last one with 67% SoC.
Now the bike is again with my dealer for troubleshooting without success.
Do you have similar experiences or advices? Thanx!
Many things can affect the charge rate.
What was your SOC% when you started the charge? This is the main question. If you're at the high end of the charge, the charge rate must drop down a lot.
What was the outside temps?
One an average temp day, what is the charge rate when you're below the midrange, say at 20% SOC?
Do not expect it to stay at a steady charge rate.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have 1st release Ribelle (with the motor that requires fluid changes every 6k miles) and when I use CCS I usually average around 15kw as well. I only use CCS on longer rides so I’m usually in the high teens to low 20% when I plug in and I charge to between 80%-90% depending on the distance to the next charger.
I’ve never gotten anything even remotely approaching 20kw. I do charge at 240v AC most of the time (home and work) and I can count on one hand the number of rides where I used CCS since getting my bike in the summer of 2020.
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I’ve never gotten anything even remotely approaching 20kw. I do charge at 240v AC most of the time (home and work) and I can count on one hand the number of rides where I used CCS since getting my bike in the summer of 2020.
I have seen 25KW on my SS9- quite often. I normally charge up at just below 20% SOC when I go between Reno and Auburn.
I get less when I use the CCS at a Harley shop. Never saw above 15KW for those.
Do you recall your charge rates when you had your SS9- on CCS?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Unfortunately, no. IIRC I only CCS charged my SS9- once or twice but I didn’t pay attention to the charge rate.
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Unfortunately, no. IIRC I only CCS charged my SS9- once or twice but I didn’t pay attention to the charge rate.
I did today.
I took a ride on my SS9- to the south end of Carson City today and recharged in CC when at 42% SOC to make sure I had enough juice to get home.
I discovered the CCS charger shows 2KW more charge than the bike does at the same time.
I was at 46% SOC in one minute.
I assume the CCS charge machine is more accurate than the bike.
Photos below.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hi there,
Maybe this is helpful: One particular charger operator here in Germany (EnBW) provides actual curves of the charge power.
Unfortunately these stations are rare in my region, so I have just 3 of these curves - see attached pictures.
As you can see, the average is always above 18 kW, but the actual charge power is steeply going down beyond approx. 80 % SOC.
During the second charge the power decreased quickly, as far as I can remember this was on a warm day with a faster ride on the Autobahn, so the battery was quite warm.
Have a safe ride, everyone!
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Hi to all of you and thanx for your comments!
@Don: As I wrote in my first post, I started most of the fast charging at around 10%. Outside temp. was around 20° C (68° F). One charge started at 67% at around 10° C. (50°F). This one started with 24kW!
I'm aware of the temperature and SoC conditions, that have an influence on the charging rate. What's strange to me is, that my bike has this behavior I described above. One day I had a spare bike from my dealer (SS9) and when i charged the bike I saw 24 kW all the way up to around 80 or 85%.
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@jotjotde: Thanx for the hint. I drive around in the Bad Säckingen-Schwarzwald-Laufenburg area and there are some EnBw charger. So I will try to make a picture of that. Where are you driving?
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@jotjotde: Thanx for the hint. I drive around in the Bad Säckingen-Schwarzwald-Laufenburg area and there are some EnBw charger. So I will try to make a picture of that. Where are you driving?
Hi, I am located in Warendorf/NRW. These chargers displaying the curve are standing exclusively at Shell Fuel Stations.
The charging of the EsseEsse with 24 kW up to 80 % as you described sound quite unusual to me. That should be possible only under near perfect conditions because the battery heats up during CCS charging. Above 20 °C ambient I usually end up with a yellow battery symbol after every CCS use and that means a significant reduction in charge power.
Another point of view maybe:
Forget about the kW numbers and look to the charging time. How long did it take to go from about 10 % to 80 %? In my view this is much more important, at least to me, because it's the time I cannot enjoy driving ;D.
That time should be about 40-45 min acc. to my experience. If that is the case then your bike should be OK and just displaying false numbers (which, by the way, wouldn't be unusual for Energica - we all know the speed is shown 10 % and the temperature 4 °C too high).
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I discovered the CCS charger shows 2KW more charge than the bike does at the same time.
This is expected. You'll always see a difference between station output and battery input since there's losses through the cables.
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This is expected. You'll always see a difference between station output and battery input since there's losses through the cables.
2,000 watts loss in the cables? I would think that would be very hot cables.
And would even be more if a car were charging.
-Don- Reno, NV
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2,000 watts loss in the cables? I would think that would be very hot cables.
And would even be more if a car were charging.
The cables do get very hot. 500A DC fast chargers are liquid cooled for that reason! 10% loss is generally expected.
https://insideevs.com/features/555906/tesla-charging-losses-explained/
Edit: Also the battery heats up while charging.
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The cables do get very hot. 500A DC fast chargers are liquid cooled for that reason! 10% loss is generally expected.
https://insideevs.com/features/555906/tesla-charging-losses-explained/ (https://insideevs.com/features/555906/tesla-charging-losses-explained/)
Edit: Also the battery heats up while charging.
Yep, there are more losses than I expected. But not too surprising as we're dealing with large numbers. The fast charger is showing the wattage supplied and the EV is showing the wattage being used to the battery. But I would think the battery heat waste would not be shown on the bike, but I cannot be sure because I have no idea where it is measured. If it is measured before the battery, the bike wouldn't know about the heat (wattage loss) of the battery, just the cables and neither would the fast charger. I would assume it's volts times amps measured going to the battery, which would include the heat loss, so then none of measurements will change because of the efficiently of the battery.
Do you know where it is measured on the bike?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Do you know where it is measured on the bike?
I believe it measures energy added to the battery pack by monitoring its voltage.
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Nice those chargers with graphs. We don't have those here in Belgium. I can plot graphs from BLE data though ??.
It would be useful in your case to know battery temp. Not just the color of the icon cause that only turns red at 40 dC. That's also possible from my apps or just the ble data.
I say this cause it's perfectly possible to ride like high speed or highway and heat up battery to 30 dC or so causing the bike to throttle soon after starting a charge. For example below graph is after highway first charge.
(https://i.ibb.co/d6cJyrR/ED9-F4-D04-7-CC6-4-B6-D-B5-A8-1880785-F4-E5-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tchP549)
For myself on 2021 SS9+ the first charge I can often keep it above 20 kW if I don't charge for more than 20 minutes or 50% of capacity. I typically aim at 30-80% charges. Starting below 30% will also always throttle before reaching 80%.
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This was probably the last video I made on charging temp, got more on my channel
https://youtu.be/6RVYhM0FoaE
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And in comparison this is a better charge curve started at 75A or 24 kW where battery wasnt that warm to begin with
(https://i.ibb.co/1mfvW07/CEC00-A77-3330-4-FD2-8513-8-B6313537509.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzN0mdB)
I think I need another video on this subject 😂
Very curious myself if Experia performs any better. They did claim am improved battery cooling design...
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Well, it seems there is a lot of unknown on this subject. Thank you Hans for your interesting details, especially the graphs. In the meantime I found another interesting youtube video about a travel with many charging details with a 2022 EGO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7YWMzXK2Y
I already wrote 3 mails to energica about other things (one was also a request to change the speed control). They never responded. In the meantime I also have a button for the speed control on my left hand bar. I found this in another forum and my technician from my dealer made it happen.
If you could give me instructions Hans on how I could have the same datas you brought from your bike to your iphone, that would be great.
About battery behavior in general I found a very interesting digital book, written by David Bricknell (it is still available in Apple bookstore for free!) about the BMW i3, that we use now for 41/2 years. I place a screenshot of the battery envelope where you can see the optimum temp. is between 10° to 50° C. (or 50° to 120° F). I don't know, if you can simply transfer this values to the battery of an energica, but it gives a good idea, that they work in a wide range.
I asked my dealer to organize a graph, where one can see the envelope of the battery in our bikes. Also what parameters have an influence on determing the charging power in kW and when they kick in. When I got information on that I will post these.
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@jotjotde: Thanx for the hint. I drive around in the Bad Säckingen-Schwarzwald-Laufenburg area and there are some EnBw charger. So I will try to make a picture of that. Where are you driving?
Hi, I am located in Warendorf/NRW. These chargers displaying the curve are standing exclusively at Shell Fuel Stations.
The charging of the EsseEsse with 24 kW up to 80 % as you described sound quite unusual to me. That should be possible only under near perfect conditions because the battery heats up during CCS charging. Above 20 °C ambient I usually end up with a yellow battery symbol after every CCS use and that means a significant reduction in charge power.
Another point of view maybe:
Forget about the kW numbers and look to the charging time. How long did it take to go from about 10 % to 80 %? In my view this is much more important, at least to me, because it's the time I cannot enjoy driving ;D.
That time should be about 40-45 min acc. to my experience. If that is the case then your bike should be OK and just displaying false numbers (which, by the way, wouldn't be unusual for Energica - we all know the speed is shown 10 % and the temperature 4 °C too high).
Hi jotjotde: You mention an interesting point: The temp. displaxed is at least 4° too high. If this temp. is used to determine the max charging power, one might be easy in the yellow range, that might reduce the power. I hope to get details from my technician on that. I expereience the same chaerging time as you do, and this is also to me lost time to enjoy riding that beast...
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Hi jotjotde: You mention an interesting point: The temp. displaxed is at least 4° too high. If this temp. is used to determine the max charging power, one might be easy in the yellow range, that might reduce the power. I hope to get details from my technician on that. I expereience the same chaerging time as you do, and this is also to me lost time to enjoy riding that beast...
Hi!
So if you are seeing the same charging times as others, the displayed kW numbers shouldn't matter too much, should they?
As discussed these numbers might differ due to several reasons, maybe even from bike to bike, but in the end what matters (at least to me) is the result, i.e. the charging time.
Looking at the charge curves of Hans, there is a difference of merely 6 minutes between cold and warm charging. I can live with that :D
BTW: The temperature on the display is ambient, not battery (it is changing quite quickly e.g. when you enter a shady wood on a sunny day). I doubt that ambient temperature is influencing the charge performance. Why there is this 4 °C difference to real temperature I cannot say, for Energica it would be easy to fix, but so would be the speed difference ::).
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Okay guys, thank you for all your answers! I learned a lot. And as soon as I have news from Energica, I'll post that here.
Cheers!